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    Women face cuts 'misery'

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    Angie baby
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    Women face cuts 'misery'

    Post by Angie baby on Sat 20 Feb 2010, 12:29 pm

    Woman are being hit hardest and face a "double blow" of cuts in pay and public services, a union leader has warned.

    Unison general secretary Dave Prentis said the cuts would make life a "misery" for millions of women.

    He told the union's women's conference in Gateshead yesterday "The worldwide recession has left the UK with massive debts and there seems to be only one solution proposed".

    "Yet again, it's our public services and our members in the firing line and when public services are cut, it's women who suffer the most".

    "WE know that the vast majority of single parent households are headed by women, so when play-schemes after-school and nursery places are cut women are expected to cope."

    He called on the government to steer clear of the "easy options of tax freezes and service cuts".

    Prentis added: "When money is tight, incidents of domestic violence increase, but funding for women's refuges and services are often top of the list for spending cuts. "Now is the time for investment in public services".

    --------------------------------------------------------------

    Well, do you agree with that, and if you do what chance do you think women will have if the Tories get in and start to slash these services even more than might be already planned ?
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    papa_umau
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    Re: Women face cuts 'misery'

    Post by papa_umau on Sun 21 Feb 2010, 11:46 am

    I can understand why you might take the "woman's" stance here as it is true that any and all minority groups are always more easily victimised than the stronger or larger groups might be.

    For all of the reasons mentioned above there is no doubt that the female gender will feel the cuts that are to come more wideranging and deeper than some other groups might.

    Because they are an easy target they WILL be targetted by the people in power that like to take on the soft targets.

    I just hope that enough of the male gender recognise this possible future and support our womenfolk in their fight for equality and fairness.


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    Re: Women face cuts 'misery'

    Post by Shuggy on Mon 22 Feb 2010, 4:19 pm

    Equality for Women but in reality they are very unlikely to get it.

    Let me answer my reason for this statement by asking a question. A young man and a young lady with equal qualifications and require equal pay. Who will the employer choice, well its likely to be the young man because he won't be leaving to start a family. Quite an unfair reason and should never happen, but with small firms which there are now many, it will be a very inportant factor.
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    Re: Women face cuts 'misery'

    Post by papa_umau on Tue 23 Feb 2010, 11:37 am

    That question can not be avoided and it is complicated even more by the fact that women are still seen as the major care-givers for children even after the birthing period is over.

    I have seen it myself in the civil service where division leaders and promotion boards, ( the hirers and firers ), often lean towards men in the promotion stakes for precisely the reasons given above.

    Having said that I do feel that there ARE ways around this problem and if an employer really wants to give equal chances to equally-capable women in the working place then they can if they have a true desire to.

    On top of that there is the problem of different wage-scales for different genders DOING THE SAME JOB, and that is wrong everywhere we see it.

    In Scotland the equal opportunity employers are trying hard to ensure that this inequity in pay-scales is addressed and all of the local authorities are at the moment attempting to level this playing field. To do it it has been seen that while some women need to have a rise in wages, some men need to have a drop in wages to bring about this kind of equality. The men have kicked up hell that they are to lose money in order to try to fulfill this long-standing promise.

    NOT an easy problem to solve, but one that HAS TO eventually be addressed I think.


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    Re: Women face cuts 'misery'

    Post by Angie baby on Sat 27 Feb 2010, 11:58 am

    papa_umau wrote:I can understand why you might take the "woman's" stance here as it is true that any and all minority groups are always more easily victimised than the stronger or larger groups might be.

    For all of the reasons mentioned above there is no doubt that the female gender will feel the cuts that are to come more wideranging and deeper than some other groups might.

    Because they are an easy target they WILL be targetted by the people in power that like to take on the soft targets.

    I just hope that enough of the male gender recognise this possible future and support our womenfolk in their fight for equality and fairness.

    There is no doubt that because women do not have a lot of power in society or in the work place they will be targeted as easy to beat.

    Shuggy wrote:Equality for Women but in reality they are very unlikely to get it.

    Let me answer my reason for this statement by asking a question. A young man and a young lady with equal qualifications and require equal pay. Who will the employer choice, well its likely to be the young man because he won't be leaving to start a family. Quite an unfair reason and should never happen, but with small firms which there are now many, it will be a very inportant factor.

    And you are quite right that the "curse" - can I call it - of having the procreational organs inside our bodies means that we are often treated as second class citizens and often seen as just made for churning out babies, with no other worth than that.

    In fact that is just one of our extra qualities over and above the male gender and if given the chance we can do as well or better than the men in many aspects of daily life and work. In fact, it has been proven that we have to try much harder than men have to to just stand still in many male-controlled situations.

    This is slowly changing but it will not change fully until we - the burds - fight tooth and nail to make it work.

    ( OH...I enjoyed that ! queen ).
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    Re: Women face cuts 'misery'

    Post by Shuggy on Sat 27 Feb 2010, 3:11 pm

    Angie if you had the power to do so, how would you go about changing laws to get equal rights for women and being fair to employers with small staff level?
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    Re: Women face cuts 'misery'

    Post by papa_umau on Sun 28 Feb 2010, 11:41 am

    Got to take Angie's side here Shuggy as as far as I see it the equality thing should be automatic.

    If we work from that starting premise then I am sure the details could be easily worked out if there was a real desire among the men to do so.

    Yes, you do not need to be a woman to be a feminist you know !


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    Re: Women face cuts 'misery'

    Post by Shuggy on Sun 28 Feb 2010, 12:16 pm

    I didn't know I wasn't on Angie side Paul. Put your self in the positions of an employer, with a small staff level, he's going to be worried that the lady will clear off in a few months to start a family. He or she going to have the same problem of filling the vacancy, this time on a short time basis, because the job must be left open for the employee to return. Every one should have equal pay and rights but how to enforce this rule in a fair way that is the problem.
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    Re: Women face cuts 'misery'

    Post by Frenzied Feline on Sun 28 Feb 2010, 8:22 pm

    I like to think I've smashed the "glass ceiling" and had the babies too.. cos I am WOMAN .. W O M A N .. like the Peggy Lee song Laughing which happens to be the anthem of all the women within in my family Laughing

    Fact of life.. my children provide your and my own pensions etc/ They are only kids for 18-22 years . and then they start to earn in their own rights? I am a Mama for them till the day I die on the other hand .. and I will be there for them when they graduate/marry/have kids/bail out as and when they need our help.. . err.. you know.. once a parent.. it's a life sentence really. My own Mama told me so!Q I have to adnit she was 100% RIGHT on that one Rolling Eyes

    You men need us women to procreate .. and each gender wants their genes/progeny/fruits of marriage to succeed snd surpass their efforts and stewardship of family fortunes and planet's obligations too.

    But as a woman who works ruddy hard and - saves - or rather more honestly typed - improves the lot of her patients - I think I am entitled to rthe same pay as as male doing similar work and a pension equal to his contirbutions give I have paid the same into this funding. Angie as a teacher would be putting in the same work as her male colleagues and entitled as a fellow professional to the same privilege.

    I know that some office based women do not experience the same protection as ourselves within the medicine/teaching/other public services.,, and I would campaign for their rights as much as my own.. as I think there is a need based again on anecdotal evidence of the real world beyond the cyber space of the internet! Crying or Very sad if you understand what I ma trying to say here?

    I am saying Angie makes a very fair and valid point over the sad lot of the average office based woman who work for "non-blue chip" employers
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    Re: Women face cuts 'misery'

    Post by papa_umau on Mon 01 Mar 2010, 12:33 pm

    Cannot disagree with that lot as - as usual - Maril speaks a lot of sense !

    Having said that, it is also true that - as Macca says - the small employer just cannot afford to - in many cases - do what is needed to be done to make working life as fair for women as it is for men.

    The ideal situation here is that once a "person" is trained up and capable of doing a complex job or even taking responsibility at a high level that person becomes an essential part of the team in any business strata. For that person to go away for six months to a year for maternity leave has to create a great big hole in the management structure that has to be temporarily filled until they come back hoping to pick up where they left off.

    Yes, there are subsidies to employers that help to finance these gaps but there are times when no amount of money will replace the actual person that is leaving as no small company can have TWO of the same people doing the same job just so that one of them can drop tools and swan off to have babies and hope to come back again.

    In bigger companies this problem is much easier sorted as there are many more people to pick from that MIGHT be able to do that job on a temporary basis.

    That particular problem aside I still feel that there is no good reason for men to paid more than women for doing the same or a similar job.


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    Re: Women face cuts 'misery'

    Post by Hell's Granny on Tue 02 Mar 2010, 6:25 pm

    Being out of the labour market now gives me more leisure to look at some of the inequities happening all over. I know we are ostensibly discussing women here but there are many cases where men also get a bad deal.

    Historically it can come down to what was seen as 'women's work', and much goes back to the years of 'Service', where the Butler was Always male, the Cook was Always female, and so on. Nursing and Governessing were women's work, and can still be seen in the preponderance of women in both these spheres of employment. (Governessing may have gone, but Infant and Junior school teachers are still mainly female) OK, there are a few Male midwives, and possibly a few male Nursery Nurses nowadays, but it is still predominately women's work.

    Men's work was traditionally the hard, heavy labour, Agricultural, Industrial, etc., plus the Professions of Law, The Church, The Military, Banking and it's ancillary work. Civil Service was also predominantly male. Women have slowly begun to make their mark here, as they have in the Fire, Police and Ambulance Services, but there are still perceived gender Stereoptyping here, and to be honest, I can't see it changing, as there is still predudice, even if it not overt.

    For instance, What gender comes to mind with the word Nurse? Overwhelmingly female.

    How about Soldier? Male.

    Hairdresser? Probably female

    Barber, Male.

    And so it continues. We are conditioned to see these stereotypes, and I can't see it changing anytime soon.

    Cheers, HG
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    Re: Women face cuts 'misery'

    Post by papa_umau on Wed 03 Mar 2010, 10:50 am

    Certainly not "soon" HG, but just because "we" - the world - continues to stereotype the sexes into male and female jobs does not mean that we should not strive to try to bring these inequities into the light.

    I do agree that certain jobs or sports or some other leisure pastimes ARE defined by the body strength and the general makeup of the skeleton of the males and females and that will always be the case, but where these genetic differences are not so profound I am sure that we - especially the men in control - should try much harder to see just what can be done by BOTH sexes. Once a job is being done efficiently the paymasters should ensure that the pay that is delivered to these different genders that do the same job is exactly the same.

    I mentioned "sport" above and I do not think that there is another field where females try so hard to make themsleves look like males in order to be able to perform like males. Many times we have seen female sprint runners, throwing and lifting athletes deliberately developing muscles that make them look and act like males, ( not to mention the illegal use of male hormones ). I can think of a few off hand and my favourite was an Eastern bloc woman middle-dstance runner called Ilena Kratochvilova, ( I think ? ), who looked more like a man than Mike Tyson did.

    Here is a photo of her:


    It is shame when women feel that they have to look and perform like males when they take part in their chosen sport ! bounce


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    Re: Women face cuts 'misery'

    Post by Frenzied Feline on Wed 10 Mar 2010, 7:45 pm

    Hell's Granny wrote:Being out of the labour market now gives me more leisure to look at some of the inequities happening all over. I know we are ostensibly discussing women here but there are many cases where men also get a bad deal.


    Indeed. I watched the "celeb on the dole thing" last night. Complete cobblers as folk are looking for work within their field initially and "lower sights only when desperate".


    I know of a real life scenarion whereby the officer worker took a job lower than past experience - only to find SHE was out of the running for a job because her last job had not required her to calculate "accruals or prepayments". HUH? One does not forget to do what is actually a very simple piece of arithmetic?

    My point? It seems employers are making daft choices - same as they always did and this could explain why businesses fail because of some desire to tick some obscure prejudiced box?


    And just because a woman has a certain biochemistry and different organs to her male mate - this does not alter her brain nor her ability to earn her living /contribute to the economy either. And in real terms - a housewife - bringing up her children and managing the household income in pretty much the same way as Sir Alan Sugar -based on known income and expenses - does not make that woman any less of value to the world as my "lofty - somewhat - arogant self" (as I can be held to have my cake and be eating it in this instance as I have career and kids and an internet ranting moment .. plus indulgences in other "unladylike pursuits" such as loving a car - being a bit "blokey-minded with the blokey bloke crowd"! if you understand what I try to say - again very badly! Rolling Eyes


    Historically it can come down to what was seen as 'women's work', and much goes back to the years of 'Service', where the Butler was Always male, the Cook was Always female, and so on. Nursing and Governessing were women's work, and can still be seen in the preponderance of women in both these spheres of employment. (Governessing may have gone, but Infant and Junior school teachers are still mainly female) OK, there are a few Male midwives, and possibly a few male Nursery Nurses nowadays, but it is still predominately women's work.

    Hmmm. Chefs - good ones - male! Dammit! Mad

    But Cook and Butler and Housekeeper (usually female and the Butler's counterpart) were all absolutely essential managers and equated to "MD/Financial Controller/Works Director" in terms of household budget as maintained mostly by the LADY of the house! ( I base this on a visit to "Erdigg"/Styal and various other NY/Heritage places which show the accounts in great details and it's a really valuable time capsule of real life history as it was in an era of "Upstairs Downstairs" with the "Hudson/Mrs Bridges" (I love GOLD and ITV3 at times Laughing)




    Men's work was traditionally the hard, heavy labour, Agricultural, Industrial, etc., plus the Professions of Law, The Church, The Military, Banking and it's ancillary work.


    Historically - men studied Latin and Languages. Women studied "vulgarities" such as Maths and Science! Laughing But women per our ancestors? We were the gatherers of berries and herbs whilst the blokes attacked dinosaurs for meat! Hence - our muscles developped differently. A bloke's muscles are in his arms/legs and perhaps chest whilst a woman's strength lies within her lower torso and hips - which we need for childbirth! We have the same strengths - but nature required we develop differently to survive! Brainwise - we are each unique but compatible partners who would attract accordingly! Wink


    Civil Service was also predominantly male. Women have slowly begun to make their mark here, as they have in the Fire, Police and Ambulance Services, but there are still perceived gender Stereoptyping here, and to be honest, I can't see it changing, as there is still predudice, even if it not overt.

    For instance, What gender comes to mind with the word Nurse? Overwhelmingly female.

    How about Soldier? Male.

    We ladies have been unfortunate .. since Eve or rather the Church decreed we are "temptresses" who would lead "Adam" to folly!!!! It was not Eve nor even Pandora's curiosity which led to violence. Cain did murder Abel in the heat of argument after all! By doing so -= Cain marked the human race as "able to kill his own mankind" by the myth/ lore and legend of the Bible Wink (Sometimes - I think mankind invented legend to explain the horror of its darkest moments of sheer violence)? confused I am making some rather controversial comments for discussion here - as my normal!)

    Sure - I have male nurses and female nurses on my team. I think I would be stupid to suggest that this was in the same proportion to my team of doctors of whom I number more males than females by comparison!


    I think ladies turn to nursing by their inner programme to care/look after others perhaps? But this profession is changing and becoming a darned sight more pro-active/managerial/decision-making than previously


    Hairdresser? Probably female

    Hmmm.. Vidal Sassoon... Paul Frieda.. AND numerous other MALES have led the fashions over the decades - as they have with clothes and make-up and perfumes!

    The high street hairdresser? Usually female and perhaps talented in cutting and copying the "haut-couture" - but not possessing that "acumen" to set styles as Coco Chanel.. (woman_) .Cynthia Lennon )woman) Mary Quant (woman) and countless others! I mention the off top of head household names! I dare say Victoria Beckham/Kate Bush/Cheryl Cole/Nicole Kidman et al all set an individualistic style which we women want to copy as "chic/with-it"


    I - on the other hand - dress to my own tastes and "to hell with fashion" as I am an "original" who knows what suits me - so there!


    Barber, Male.

    I think a barber did more than cut hair in the old days. I think he provided "first aid - early A&E" in the early years. I think this was the origin of the red/white post? I may be wrong - but I seem to recall reading wiki on this topic?


    And so it continues. We are conditioned to see these stereotypes, and I can't see it changing anytime soon.

    Cheers, HG

    I agree with you over stereotypes - but I think I am pointing out that this is a modern phemomena? and we do have the power to change things and redress the balance. I think you are right in that it may take some time - but just because we carry the babies in our wombs for 9 months gestation and have to feed and wean our babies over a 6-9 month period after birth - does not render us incapable of earning our crusts.

    And even if we choose to raise our kids at home - we still work as money managers and ACCOUNTANTS. Ask your Granny about the tins she kept for food/milk/medical bills/rates/gas etc and then look at accountancy practice and stewardship and prudence concepts and you find "they are very much the same thing" Laughing
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    Re: Women face cuts 'misery'

    Post by Frenzied Feline on Wed 10 Mar 2010, 7:47 pm

    PS - I have brothers and in-laws and cousins who are .. oh dear - accountants and bankers Shocked
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    Re: Women face cuts 'misery'

    Post by zathrus on Fri 12 Mar 2010, 11:40 am

    That must have taken one helluva time to do FF ?

    I hope that the users of ROB appreciate the effort that you put into your work here.

    Back to the topic....

    I think it all boils down to which jobs suit which genders I guess. After all, even if we do have some jobs that are traditionally done by men and others done by women there is nothing to say that each could not, and do on occasion, cross these sexual boundaries and do each-other's jobs.

    The only quality that cannot be ignored is that genetically men are much stronger than women and when it comes to brawn we have the women beaten hands down, but when it comes to brain the game is anybody's to win.
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    Re: Women face cuts 'misery'

    Post by papa_umau on Sun 14 Mar 2010, 11:38 am

    Wow Zath, I am impressed; that was almost feminist in opinion ! Twisted Evil

    I think that while we may be generally stronger than women I think that women are better at handling pain ! ( At least they will say that every time they get a chance to and they will always include the pain of childbirth, which many of them think we could not handle ).


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    Re: Women face cuts 'misery'

    Post by Hell's Granny on Sun 14 Mar 2010, 11:47 pm

    Yes, on the whole men are physically stronger, but due to our anatomical differences, men and women tend to be stronger in different bodily areas. Men, used to hefting and carrying, have more strength in the upper body,(wide shoulders, slim hips), whilst for women, the strength is in the lower body, with the emphasis on the pelvis, which is wider and more bowl-shaped in order to carry a pregnancy.

    Cheers, HG
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    Re: Women face cuts 'misery'

    Post by papa_umau on Mon 15 Mar 2010, 11:11 am

    And as I have said many times before...."Viva la difference!" Twisted Evil I love you Twisted Evil


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    Re: Women face cuts 'misery'

    Post by Frenzied Feline on Mon 15 Mar 2010, 9:07 pm

    zathrus wrote:That must have taken one helluva time to do FF ?

    Many thanks! I try to put effort into everything I do in life as time to me is very precious!


    I hope that the users of ROB appreciate the effort that you put into your work here.

    Again . thank you for kind comment!




    Back to the topic....

    I think it all boils down to which jobs suit which genders I guess. After all, even if we do have some jobs that are traditionally done by men and others done by women there is nothing to say that each could not, and do on occasion, cross these sexual boundaries and do each-other's jobs.

    The only quality that cannot be ignored is that genetically men are much stronger than women and when it comes to brawn we have the women beaten hands down, but when it comes to brain the game is anybody's to win.

    Have you seen that BBC4 documentary about "Women" and the feminist movement of the 70s when they burned their bras? It is very worhtwhile telly! In my humble opinion (and somehow I think some were naive and a little silly in declaring their sexual inclinations as this rather undermined the movemnent for sexual and not necessarily "gender" equality at the time!)

    I think this statement rather states what I think in my as yet "not thought through" subconcious - as I think that equality between male and female mindsets are nor quite the same as "biological gender" - but underpin by stating that the two are intertwined and should not be subject to any discrimination - but that when we are discussing male/female equality = then "attitude/orientation/perception" are linked and just maybe we have to address our attitudes here???7

    I am making points for discussion here .. I am not necessaritly stating what I actually think/opine. I am making a summary of what folk say here and on a re-read - I think I dig a huge hole or create some food for thought?

    I think Mrs Pankhurst and her movoement across Europe and our own little protest in 1980s Appenzell (the last Kanton to grant its women a vote in 1990/1991 - and that won by hard fight by local women who lobbied all known political parties and made loud local protests! Women of Appenzell Inner-Ausseroden got voting rights in 1990/1991 respectively after Kantonal voting - which then became part of Confederate Law.

    Back to your point zathrus (whom I consider to be a virtual kindred spirit. I love you )

    Brain cell/IQ are not gender orientated. Women of the past who were so "blessed of brain power" were accused of witchcraft and faced a very nasty death as result. Such was male dogma! Linked to male domination of the Church if you like .. Rolling Eyes I am sure I do not have to list history of strong mindend women who died branded as witches - but who became revered when their achievements became acknowledged fairly? confused

    I think we women have achieved much in very recent years! I think I am regarded as an equal in my own line of working professionalism. I would want this to be the case for all. I do not seek to be "better than the male" = but his equal partner in every aspect of human life/professional and any other working life. BY that last clause - I do not mean to denigrate others - but that all aspects of work of any value should be paid per value of work done and NOT PER GENDER!

    I think I yet again say what I try to say very badly. I hope you understand what I mean - even if I put the words a bit "badly"???

    Best regards and I am well meaning if a little badly phrased?

    Maril
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    Re: Women face cuts 'misery'

    Post by zathrus on Tue 16 Mar 2010, 11:36 am

    There is no doubt that it is still a "man's world" out there as men seem to have most of the power and money sewn up. That is not to say that there is not a number of powerful and rich females out there too, as there obviously is.

    The days when women were held down as chattels are now past and gone as far as the west is concerned and it is now only in Muslim or very backward countries where this practice is still prevalent.

    I smiled at the thought of "clever" women being burned at the stake for being witches even although I believe that we still have a similar analogy in the modern world of today: Women who look as if they might get a bit "uppity" in the workplace are very often slapped down by male supervisors just so that they are made to "know their place" and I am sure that that is why we have a feminist movement that like to cleave to each-other for moral support.

    I guess that no matter how we try to dissect this situation there will always be a "battle of the sexes" raging all around us.

    Like many men I like to make "sexist" jokes on occasion and while I mean no harm by these funnies I am sure that many women take such bits of humour as attacks on their feminist rights. ( Another example of political correctness gone mad I think ). affraid

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    Re: Women face cuts 'misery'

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      Current date/time is Fri 24 Nov 2017, 2:05 am