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    Brown Resorts to Name Calling (Lost the Argument)

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    riders_on_the_storm
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    Brown Resorts to Name Calling (Lost the Argument)

    Post by riders_on_the_storm on Sat 05 Dec 2009, 11:05 am

    From a completely hopeless tosser, to the one-man idiot who crashed the UK economy and who now wants to use the taxes from a fraudulent global warming scare, this walking abomination has now had a comprehensive investigation and report compiled and decided that the climate change "skeptics" - who's thorough expose of the climate scam criminals has exposed them for what they are - are now deemed as "flat-earthers". This just shows the mentality of the man, he doesn't have an ounce of reality in his body.

    Now when I keep hearing silly man-made politicians or enviro-nuts resorting to scare tactics like name calling or "think about future generations" then I cannot help but think their argument is null and void and they have to resort to name calling and shouting matches when someone kindly lays out the facts in front of them. Gordon Brown is one of those truthfully challenged people and he would do well to maybe read about the real fraud rather than bury his head in the sand so that he only hears and says what he and his communist ilk want to hear.

    Another thing I have noticed is "believers" in the new religion are getting very short-tempered, this would also tell me they and their little lies have been exposed. I mean watch this from about 3:40 in:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=429xoDtqS-A

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    Re: Brown Resorts to Name Calling (Lost the Argument)

    Post by papa_umau on Sat 05 Dec 2009, 12:17 pm

    I find it amusing that the "antis" jump on one set of hacked e-mails and then present them as the definitive proof that anthropogenic climate change does not exist.

    This is total nonsense of course as for every one bit of denier rhetoric there are a hundred bits of settled science to refute the ramblings of these conspiracy nuts.

    Sadly it is also a bit childish to attack Brown with this conspiracy too as if the two are somehow joined at the hip.


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    Re: Brown Resorts to Name Calling (Lost the Argument)

    Post by riders_on_the_storm on Sat 05 Dec 2009, 5:43 pm

    ""I find it amusing that the "antis" jump on one set of hacked e-mails and then present them as the definitive proof that anthropogenic climate change does not exist."

    Well all that was in that one-set was sufficent evidence to ascertain a huge collusion and cover-up of data that did not conform to the political viewpoint of the politicians and the IPCC.

    I would think that if the "antis" were caught with emails that said "We were trying to hide the rise in temperature" we would certainly hear a different slant on this?

    I am not sure where you get this "settled science" crap. To be honest paps there IS no settled science because climate science is just in its infancy - nobody has that much of a grasp on it yet - look at the emails these guys do not know what is going on but they try to cover up and say 'Yeah it's warming see, because of us, we made up a model that said it would and it is'.

    What we do know from past trends (where we have actual evidence of what happened) is that there has been much higher temperatures and CO2 than todays levels - all before industry was invented, these are found in cycles and they come around again and again, and for some reason Earth and its inhabitants are still here.

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    Re: Brown Resorts to Name Calling (Lost the Argument)

    Post by papa_umau on Sun 06 Dec 2009, 12:19 pm

    IT is obvious by your continued stance that you are not interested in the "science" that is "settled" and that you have this denier "bit" between your teeth and like any stubborn horse you are not going to let go.

    Yes, I have already admitted that the science is still open for some discussion and those idots that tried to hide those e-mails have done the environmental cause no favours whatsoever.

    Considered and dismissed as only one set of figures that in no way destroys the whole argument, we have to keep on looking for the facts so that at every turn the deniers have to find more information to support their conspiracy theories.

    In order to refute these allegations The Met Office are to - this week ahead - publish the data they use to analyse climate change and global warming. A spokesman said these figures will show that global temperatures HAVE risen over the last 150 years. The move follows claims from climate change sceptics that researchers have manipulated evidence to support a theory of anthropogenic global warming.




    Even with these figures accepted - or not - we STILL have all of the evidence of North and South ice-fields and ancient glaciers melting that have never melted before in known history to suggest that something is definitely up. ( The regular cyclic solar events are taken into consideration when these events are studied ).

    There has to come a time, ( probably after it is too late ), for the deniers to admit that their conspiracy theories about this very important subject were WRONG !


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    Re: Brown Resorts to Name Calling (Lost the Argument)

    Post by wheel on Sun 06 Dec 2009, 6:07 pm

    Brown hides the real truth about the REAL reason why we should cut down on using energy!
    He probably believes that c02 emission should be reduced, but it's all about providing energy!!!

    WE NEED TO BUILD MORE POWER STATIONS!!!!

    But demand is overtaking the snails pace inwhich new power stations can be buil't!

    Easy option to cut energy use is to use the emissions card!

    Also there is some evidence that the world natural climate cycle would WARM up anyway then COOL down again over time!

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    Re: Brown Resorts to Name Calling (Lost the Argument)

    Post by papa_umau on Mon 07 Dec 2009, 11:40 am

    wheel wrote:Brown hides the real truth about the REAL reason why we should cut down on using energy!
    He probably believes that c02 emission should be reduced, but it's all about providing energy!!!

    WE NEED TO BUILD MORE POWER STATIONS!!!!

    But demand is overtaking the snails pace inwhich new power stations can be buil't!

    Easy option to cut energy use is to use the emissions card!

    Also there is some evidence that the world natural climate cycle would WARM up anyway then COOL down again over time!

    wheel.

    Hi Wheel, nice to see you again...it's been a while !

    Let me take your post one bit at a time shall I ?

    We don't NEED to build more power stations, we have to find different ways to generate the power that we need.

    This and past government have only paid lip-service to the renewables as they are severely pressurised by the fossil fuel and the nuclear lobbies to keep on building high-emission oil,gas and coal power stations and dangerous and VERY expensive nuclear plants.

    On top of us making the energy we need by renewable means like sun, hydro, wind, wave and tidal means - which have hardly been scratched so far - we also have to start to be much more energy-efficient so that the energy we do have goes much further. ( That's just plain common sense ).

    If it was just the world's "natural" climate cycles that we are talking about here I would agree with you, but we are NOT talking about the "natural" cycles here, we are talking about the anthropogenic, ( man-made ), input that is over and above the natural cycles that is doing the damage.

    Our Andrew - the website's resident denier - even admits that there is some anthropogenic input of greenhouse gasses and other pollutants that is over and above what nature does here and all we are arguing about is the degree of this damaging input.

    The people who do care about the future of this beautiful earth - who number in their millions BTW - and who are backed up by nine-tenths of the independent science of metereology and climatology are sure that what we are doing is doing long term damage to the land, sea and air on and around this planet.

    The greatest majority of world leaders and their advising scientists also agree that this is true and that is why they are going to meet in Copenhagen this week to try to work out a solution that the whole world can live with.

    If there was no problem there would be no need for a solution !


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    Re: Brown Resorts to Name Calling (Lost the Argument)

    Post by riders_on_the_storm on Mon 07 Dec 2009, 10:19 pm

    "This and past government have only paid lip-service to the renewables as they are severely pressurised by the fossil fuel and the nuclear lobbies to keep on building high-emission oil,gas and coal power stations and dangerous and VERY expensive nuclear plants."

    Oh yeah well why are the very people you keep accusing of being in bed with the "deniers" actually promoting the big carbon con?

    Link

    The big irony behind top globalists descending on Copenhagen in luxury private jets and stretch limos is not just the fact that their own behavior completely contradicts their self-righteous hyperbole about CO2 emissions, but that their propaganda is vehemently supported by the very same big oil interests they accuse climate skeptics of pandering to.

    Probably one of the most flagrant examples of climate cronyism to emerge from the climategate scandal were emails in which CRU scientists, the body that provides much of the foundational global warming data for the UN IPCC, discuss how they conducted meetings with Shell Oil in order to enlist them as a strategic partner while getting them to bankroll pro-man made global warming research.


    Plus this whole Copenhagen debacle is said to produce more CO2 than one African country...how the HELL can you justify what you are saying by doing this? Do the warmists somehow pretend for a few weeks that they do not emit CO2 or that their self-righteousness cancels it out? Instead of debating the unfinished science they are playing emotional videos and having heart-string tugging speeches with no real science debate in site.

    Strange that innit?

    "Our Andrew - the website's resident denier - even admits that there is some anthropogenic input of greenhouse gasses and other pollutants that is over and above what nature does here and all we are arguing about is the degree of this damaging input."

    Em paps i'm not into religion btw so no need for calling me a denier, more of a realist, someone who has seen from historical accounts that temperatures, weather and all the rest have been colder, hotter, drier, warmer than today, in all different places on Earth. When did I ever say there was no Anthropogenic, plant or animal for that matter, input of "emissions", I guess we should stop breathing!!

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    Re: Brown Resorts to Name Calling (Lost the Argument)

    Post by papa_umau on Tue 08 Dec 2009, 11:50 am

    As usual Andrew, you have the courage of your convictions to stand for what you believe in and I respect that. The thing is that the ones that do not admit to anthropogenic climate change are the "deniers" as they are denying the mass of facts that are placed before them in favour of junk science and so-called science produced by the people who want to keep on polluting.

    If for no other reason that is one good reason for supporting the truth in this matter as anybody that supports these fossil-fuel-burning fools is just paying their game and giving their lies credence.

    Yes, the world leaders do have a total of millions of air-miles to travel to all gather in Copenhagen but would you have them getting their by donkey-cart and rowboat ? I am also sure that because they are the top people in their countries they will live in the best hotels and dine on the best cuisine and that is to be expected as they are not your average local peasants. Normally I would stand strongly against such luxurious and ostentatious behaviour but if it is going to get the people that matter together and some serious good comes from this meeting this time I am willing to overlook their self-indulgence on this occasion.

    Being a Scot and being aware that the experiment at Longannet power-station of carbon capture and storage is leading the world in this technology, I would hope that you would support this "clean-coal" system where power WILL be generated by burning coal in the future once this system is up-and-running in every coal-fired power-station in the world. This system - once introduced everywhere - will allow for the short term use of coal to generate power with millions of tons of CO2 being captured and stored underground - usually in expended oil or coal-fields - that would once have been sent into the atmosphere. This may take some time but it IS real.

    In the meantime people like me are going to keep on fighting to introduce the use of the limitless renewables so that eventually - and after the fossil-fuels run out - the greedy and foolish people of the world can TOTALLY stop poisoning our land, sea and air in the name of profit.


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    Re: Brown Resorts to Name Calling (Lost the Argument)

    Post by wheel on Tue 08 Dec 2009, 8:20 pm

    Hi Paps,

    It's been a while since I last posted due to a combination of breaking my ankle in May 2009 & being extremely busy at work!

    I agree the time as come to use renewable energies even if man isn't contributing to global warming - like you stated it makes sense!

    But I am against land wind farms, wind farms should be out at sea, out of sight.

    Vast areas of farm and hill side land is being destroyed by the wind farm menace and concrete bases in the ground!


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    Re: Brown Resorts to Name Calling (Lost the Argument)

    Post by papa_umau on Wed 09 Dec 2009, 11:28 am

    I don't know why but "they" the-powers-that-be, seem to think that wind-power is the only one of the renewables that is worth doing even if these turbines are not really all that efficient.

    I agree that these things should be either hidden out of sight or out to sea. The thing is that they are even MORE expensive to build and maintain when they are out at sea.

    I really cannot understand why the British government, ( the Scottish government are giving a good lead here ), are not using more of the OTHER renewables as they are just as important as wind-power is.

    We have hydro-power - which we use a lot in Scotland.

    We have the power of the sun, ( even although we do not get a lot of it here it could be used in many other countries near or on the equator ).

    We have wave-power - which is also being trialled in Scotland.

    We have tidal power which has not even been touched yet and which would drive turbines in every estuary four times a day as the tides come in and go out.

    The problem as I see it is that the fossil-fuel power-generation is far too easy and it is supported by this very powerful lobby. Once these CO2-releasing fuels start to run out the renewables will be all we will have left and then the governments that make the decisions will have a much easier task admitting that ALL of the renewables are the way to go in the future.


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    Re: Brown Resorts to Name Calling (Lost the Argument)

    Post by riders_on_the_storm on Wed 09 Dec 2009, 6:39 pm

    As usual Andrew, you have the courage of your convictions to stand for what you believe in and I respect that. The thing is that the ones that do not admit to anthropogenic climate change are the "deniers" as they are denying the mass of facts that are placed before them in favour of junk science and so-called science produced by the people who want to keep on polluting.

    No i'm a skeptic and so are a lot of scientists, in fact a scientist IS by nature skeptical, that is why they perform rigourous experiments and studies to ascertain if their theory is rubbish or not. And just who are these people who want to keep on polluting? Yes the big corps who want to hide behind a carbon con (the odourless and invisible gas) while continuing to commit real pollution and destruction of our environment; as long as they are not emitting CO2 they can pollute, rape and destroy pretty much any natural environment on Earth.

    If for no other reason that is one good reason for supporting the truth in this matter as anybody that supports these fossil-fuel-burning fools is just paying their game and giving their lies credence.

    As I said paps the big corps - including big oil - are the ones pushing the green agenda, they have reps at all the big climate conferences, it is in their interest because they will make more money from it - do you not see that?

    Yes, the world leaders do have a total of millions of air-miles to travel to all gather in Copenhagen but would you have them getting their by donkey-cart and rowboat ? I am also sure that because they are the top people in their countries they will live in the best hotels and dine on the best cuisine and that is to be expected as they are not your average local peasants. Normally I would stand strongly against such luxurious and ostentatious behaviour but if it is going to get the people that matter together and some serious good comes from this meeting this time I am willing to overlook their self-indulgence on this occasion.

    No I would expect them to teleconference or any other wonders of the modern age, the technology that means we do not need to physically travel to meetings anymore. Maybe if they and politicians and environmentalist lead by example we would maybe - just maybe - take them more serious. Do they not have that urge to do their bit like the want the rest of us to? What a ridiculous thing to say that they are the top people but not the "peasants", that they would be expected to wine and dine in the top hotels - how bloody hypcritical can you get - honestly, and coming from a socialist too???

    Just remember because of these so-called green policies food prices have doubled in less than 2 years because we now grow bio-fuels instead of crops, for us a minor inconvenience but in third-world countries this is the difference between life and death, and their have been riots for food in many third-world countries because of these foolish policies. This is the result of the policies you support and think are a good idea?

    Being a Scot and being aware that the experiment at Longannet power-station of carbon capture and storage is leading the world in this technology, I would hope that you would support this "clean-coal" system where power WILL be generated by burning coal in the future once this system is up-and-running in every coal-fired power-station in the world. This system - once introduced everywhere - will allow for the short term use of coal to generate power with millions of tons of CO2 being captured and stored underground - usually in expended oil or coal-fields - that would once have been sent into the atmosphere. This may take some time but it IS real.


    Yes in principle I agree with clean burning coal to stop pollution, and if the trials prove successful then great i'm all for it. We also need more nuclear stations as part of our power source for the foreseeable future IF we are to continue with the lifestyle we are accustomed to.


    In the meantime people like me are going to keep on fighting to introduce the use of the limitless renewables so that eventually - and after the fossil-fuels run out - the greedy and foolish people of the world can TOTALLY stop poisoning our land, sea and air in the name of profit.

    Great but you have to be realistic about renewables at the moment, they are not going to supply the majority of our power needs, maybe one day they will but not any time soon that's why I think nuclear and coal are our best options for now. Not that I don't want cleaner-energy production it's just the amount of investment and infrastructure for the amount of power out is very very expensive and we have existing technologies that would plug that gap until such times as mass use of renewables becomes viable.

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    Re: Brown Resorts to Name Calling (Lost the Argument)

    Post by papa_umau on Thu 10 Dec 2009, 12:19 pm

    This is a hell-uva size of a quote so I will delete as much of it as I can !

    riders_on_the_storm wrote:

    No i'm a skeptic and so are a lot of scientists, in fact a scientist IS by nature skeptical, that is why they perform rigourous experiments and studies to ascertain if their theory is rubbish or not. And just who are these people who want to keep on polluting? Yes the big corps who want to hide behind a carbon con (the odourless and invisible gas) while continuing to commit real pollution and destruction of our environment; as long as they are not emitting CO2 they can pollute, rape and destroy pretty much any natural environment on Earth.

    I agree that the good scientist are the sceptical ones and I am sure that the climate-change-supporting scientist are just as sceptical as the rest are.


    As I said paps the big corps - including big oil - are the ones pushing the green agenda, they have reps at all the big climate conferences, it is in their interest because they will make more money from it - do you not see that?

    They are kidding you on as what they are doing along these lines is a snow-job. They do not care about the renewables at the moment as they are making too much money out of the fossil-fuels to be truthful about their desires to change. EVENTUALLY they WILL have to make that change, but only after they are forced to.


    No I would expect them to teleconference or any other wonders of the modern age, the technology that means we do not need to physically travel to meetings anymore. Maybe if they and politicians and environmentalist lead by example we would maybe - just maybe - take them more serious. Do they not have that urge to do their bit like the want the rest of us to? What a ridiculous thing to say that they are the top people but not the "peasants", that they would be expected to wine and dine in the top hotels - how bloody hypcritical can you get - honestly, and coming from a socialist too???

    When people get together from so many different walks of life and they use so many different languages, teleconferencing is just not on. This kind of a meeting HAS TO BE face to face so that everybody knows what everybody else is saying. In fact many of the biggest decisions will be made in private conferences outwith the main conference-hall - as we already do in Britain.

    I DID say that I do not agree with this "ostentatious" excess but whether I agree or disagree with it, it will still go on at this level as a very luxurious gathering suited to these top-level dignitaries. This - I believe - is unavoidable even if it is unpleasant to watch.


    Just remember because of these so-called green policies food prices have doubled in less than 2 years because we now grow bio-fuels instead of crops, for us a minor inconvenience but in third-world countries this is the difference between life and death, and their have been riots for food in many third-world countries because of these foolish policies. This is the result of the policies you support and think are a good idea?

    I do not agree with the bio-fuels policies precisely for the reason you state but if it is done in a careful manner it has to help support the lowering of pollution.


    Yes in principle I agree with clean burning coal to stop pollution, and if the trials prove successful then great i'm all for it. We also need more nuclear stations as part of our power source for the foreseeable future IF we are to continue with the lifestyle we are accustomed to.

    Nuclear stations are NOT needed as if we stop just paying lip-service to the renewables they too would not be required. ( Remember that every ounce of toxic or radioactive waste that has been produced by these dangerous installations is STILL hanging around waiting to be dealt with and every ounce that is added by this latest traunch of stations getting built in England and Wales - NOT SCOTLAND - is going to continue to add to this pile ).

    Do YOU want it buried in YOUR back garden ?


    Great but you have to be realistic about renewables at the moment, they are not going to supply the majority of our power needs, maybe one day they will but not any time soon that's why I think nuclear and coal are our best options for now. Not that I don't want cleaner-energy production it's just the amount of investment and infrastructure for the amount of power out is very very expensive and we have existing technologies that would plug that gap until such times as mass use of renewables becomes viable.

    I am sure that if we REALLY wanted to we could get the renewables working much quicker than they intend to. The thing is that they have no desire to do this as the fossil fuel and nuclear lobbies are still far too powerful.


    Andrew


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    Re: Brown Resorts to Name Calling (Lost the Argument)

    Post by Hell's Granny on Mon 14 Dec 2009, 8:44 pm

    wheel wrote:Hi Paps,
    It's been a while since I last posted due to a combination of breaking my ankle in May 2009 & being extremely busy at work!
    I agree the time as come to use renewable energies even if man isn't contributing to global warming - like you stated it makes sense!
    But I am against land wind farms, wind farms should be out at sea, out of sight.
    Vast areas of farm and hill side land is being destroyed by the wind farm menace and concrete bases in the ground!
    wheel.

    I agree we need renewable energy sources, and non-polluting ones, fast! There is a way to make wind turbines do a double duty, and that is to set them on reefs, where they can catch the wind, and at the same time warn shipping off the reefs.

    Cheers, HG
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    Re: Brown Resorts to Name Calling (Lost the Argument)

    Post by papa_umau on Tue 15 Dec 2009, 11:53 am

    What a great idea HG ! I have never heard that one before.

    I think that the only real problem with wind turbines is that they are not in use all of the time as they don't work when the wind is too slow or nonexistent and they surprisingly don't work when there is a gale blowing either.

    ( Maybe it is time that we ALL should have our own small wind turbines so as to augment the energy we get from the national grid when the wind IS blowing ? ).

    Because of this lack of dependablity the large ones are not really good enough to keep a steady flow of power going to the national grid. ( NB.... Alternating electricity - that we use in our homes and factories etc' - cannot be stored so it has to be generated to suit the demand, and wind turbines are very bad at this ).

    This is why I think that renewable sources of power that are always there like hydro-power or wave-power or tidal power or even sun-power, ( in parts of the world where the sun shines all of the time ( exept at night of course Laughing )) should be concentrated upon while wind power will always just be an add-on to the nation's and the world's energy requirements.


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    Re: Brown Resorts to Name Calling (Lost the Argument)

    Post by Hell's Granny on Thu 17 Dec 2009, 12:39 am

    I agree, once I get moved I will be installing solar water heating, (south facing roof!), and trying to get permission for a small wind turbine in my garden.

    I also hope to be able to install a greywater system, too. I hate to think of good drinking water going to flush my toilet, when I could reuse my filtered bathwater and laundry water instead. (The South East has the smallest reserves of fresh drinking water in the country).

    Cheers, HG
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    Re: Brown Resorts to Name Calling (Lost the Argument)

    Post by papa_umau on Thu 17 Dec 2009, 11:34 am

    Lots of good ideas there HG ! queen

    I was planning to install a domestic wind turbine to my house too but the grant that was going to come from the government was miniscule. I didn't !

    If this or any other government were REALLY serious about saving power they would have put laws into place that would make the conversion of ordinary homes and factories cheap enough that most people would/could do it.

    The most important way to do this - of course - is to do it during new-build projects. Then we would see carbon-neutral, ( fully insulated ), buildings going up powered by solar panels, domestic wind generators and ground or air heat-pumps and if this was done correctly the amount of power needed to go into the national grid could be cut by half.

    The Scandinavian countries can do it so I don't see why we couldn't either !


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    Re: Brown Resorts to Name Calling (Lost the Argument)

    Post by Hell's Granny on Fri 18 Dec 2009, 6:32 am

    I totally agree that we should take a leaf from Scandinavia in regard to energy conservation.

    Cheers, HG
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    Re: Brown Resorts to Name Calling (Lost the Argument)

    Post by papa_umau on Fri 18 Dec 2009, 11:32 am

    I am proud of the fact that in the UK Scotland is leading in this "renewables" technology but I worry that as soon as we find something new it will be taken away by the investment companies and expanded and developed abroad.

    This already happened with a wave-power device that could not get funding here so it had to go to Portugal for finance. Now the "water-snake" as it was called, is lost to Scotland and Britain as far as our economy and our employment prospects are concerned.

    This makes me really angry ! Mad


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    Re: Brown Resorts to Name Calling (Lost the Argument)

    Post by Hell's Granny on Fri 18 Dec 2009, 8:51 pm

    Yes, I remember it, but like many British inventions, they get developed overseas because our Government is too shortsighted to put the funding into development.

    I was happening even as far back as the late 40's and early 50's. Sir Barnes Wallis had many great ideas which were produced abroad, because we werre too chicken to take the risk.

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    Re: Brown Resorts to Name Calling (Lost the Argument)

    Post by papa_umau on Sat 19 Dec 2009, 11:00 am

    Yes, it seems crazy when one considers that we have one of the most powerful investment banking groups in the world in the London Square Mile.

    Maybe the "risk" business is not now willing to take risks any more after this sector was hit so hard in the banking/sub-prime/bad investment scandal ?

    All that aside any government worth it's salt should be able to see what is going to be good for Britain in the long term. Surely now they know that this "renewables" sector is going to be the big growth area of this new millenium ?


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