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    Could we get an 'out' vote??

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    Nuthin fancy
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    Could we get an 'out' vote??

    Post by Nuthin fancy on Sun 17 Jan 2016, 4:00 pm

    Hi all,

    Readers will know my views on the toxic EU. I would love an OUT vote, but as I said previously I don't hold out much hope with Cameron and his dirty tricks. However he may be getting the worries a little now by the latest polls showing the OUT campaign in the lead.

    Spurred on it seems by the rapes in Germany and the Paris terrorist attacks. The poll indicates Mr Cameron needs all the help he can get, as the crises in Europe coincide with a steady rise in support for leaving the EU. There is a 53-47 support for severing ties with Brussels at the moment ( of course polls are fickle and this could easily change ). Meanwhile, in another sure vote loser Wolfgang Schaeuble Germany's finance minister is floating the idea of a European tax on petrol to help finance the continent's efforts to manage the migrant crisis !!. it seems Merkel and her gang are getting more desperate by the second.

    Further support for A BREXIT has come from Norways opposition leader Erna Solberg. She says access to the EU single market is expensive and entails a "democratic deficit" for Norway, and
    UK voters would never tolerate such a deal, she believes.

    In two referendums - in 1972 and 1994 - Norwegians voted no to joining the EU and opposition to EU membership has grown steadily in Norway since 2011 - the "no" camp has been consistently above 70% in opinion polls. However Norway's economy is growing at 3%, with an unemployment rate of just 2%, and it has accumulated a huge sovereign wealth fund. Much of its growth has come from oil and gas, accounting for 21% of national output (GDP), so just compare that to the EU members.

    Iceland also remains strongly opposed to membership.

    Time to get out NOW i think !!. Things will only get worse.

    Technician
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    Re: Could we get an 'out' vote??

    Post by papa_umau on Mon 18 Jan 2016, 11:40 am

    It is a bit of a shame that the refugee crisis is skewing the feelings of the people to lean towards an out vote.

    After all, if these people who are thinking about one or two of the problems connected to Europe in particular they cannot be making a fully thought out and reasoned desire.

    The connection that Britain has with Europe is a very complex one and voting to draw out of this important connection just because some instinct tells them to vote that way would be a very short-sighted thing to do.

    I know that you have thought much more deeply than that Technician and that your reasons for wanting out of Europe have been much more seriously considered than that of most of the "outers" have, but I will bet that the great mass of the people in Britain that will vote to pull out of the European Union will do so for one or two instinctive reasons out of the dozens of deeply thought about reasons to stay in.

    Cameron is trying very hard to get a deal in Europe that the British people can live with but he is going to have to work a lot harder if he is going to persuade these doubters to stay in.

    I honestly feel that when the people of Britain really stop to think about it at the referendum we are going to see a result similar to the one when the SNP wanted an out referendum result.

    Once such long term relationships and unions have been formed it is a very difficult thing to do to break these unions.


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    An out Vote

    Post by Nuthin fancy on Mon 18 Jan 2016, 2:54 pm

    Hi All,

    Thank you for that very reasoned and lucid reply. I agree that some people will simply exhibit a 'knee jerk' reaction to the present circumstances, and yes, we may see a similar situation to the Scottish vote. As I said, i don't hold out much hope, as Cameron is such a slippery individual and I just don't trust him. I don't think for one minute he is stupid; he knows only too well what is at stake, so to me that makes him all the more dangerous.

    Over and above all that, it changes not a thing. I have, you are correct given this a great deal of thought. I have listened to the 'scare mongers' and the protagonists of the European 'Dream'. I too think the IDEA is a noble one and well intentioned. At least it WAS...Now its a JOKE. One commentator quotes the following:

    They will tell you that we will lose investments in the country, while forgetting to mention that the investors in the UK remain outside the UK to avoid paying British taxes.

    They will tell you that the banks will pull out of the UK thus losing financial input from across the World - forgetting to mention that the financial field is tenuous at the best of times and that it is hugely competitive world wide

    They will tell you that we will lose out in dealing with a single market - there is no single market, every member country trades outside the EU in addition to trading within it.

    They tell you that the States will withdraw from trading with the UK , while omitting to tell you that the States is itself in financial trouble and that Obama is the least favoured of any President there and that the States has now fallen to 45th place of popularity - they cannot afford NOT to trade with the UK.

    They tell you that thousands of jobs will be lost! Only in the EU commission where thousands of faceless people are overpaid with money that we are forced to pay for membership.

    They will tell you that we need immigrants in the UK to fill the vacancies that no-one else wants to do - while forgetting that the Government published figures last year to show that there are 6.5 million foreign workers in the UK, compared to the TUC's figures of 6.3 million British people unemployed!

    They will tell you that manufacturers will pull out of the UK - the manufacturers themselves say it will cost them more to pull out than to stay in.

    For every excuse they put forward - there are much stronger reasons why we should come out!

    BUT...Over and above ALL of this, even taking into account the 'disaster' and financial ruin caused by the EURO, the prospect of UNCONTROLLED migration of so called 'refugees' onto these shores will be the biggest decider. People realise that as long as we are in the EU we cannot control our BORDERS...That wil be the clinch argument, and one which Cameron just does not want to have.

    Nuff said I think

    Technician

    Nuff said I think !

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    Re: Could we get an 'out' vote??

    Post by papa_umau on Tue 19 Jan 2016, 11:21 am

    As I already said, unlike most of the "outers" you have obviously thought deeply about the in/out arguments and because of this you have come to a decision which has been arrived at through deep thought.

    If all of the people who might vote "out" were to examine the situation as deeply as you have I would not bother too much, as most of what you say is true.

    Of course, even the more sentient of the outers, like yourself know that because Europe is just not well enough understood by the instinctive voters, we may find ourselves out on our ear for just a few strong reasons without these people - who have already made up their minds - knowing what they are actually doing.

    If only Cameron and the rest of our MEPs could start a proper debate about fixing the great flaws in the EU I am sure that many of the people, like you and me, who have leaned to love what can be found in many of the European countries, would be much happier about staying as an integral and important part of this trading powerhouse.


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    Re: Could we get an 'out' vote??

    Post by zathrus on Thu 21 Jan 2016, 11:55 am

    There is one reason that stands out above all the other reasons to get out and that is the 55 million a day or 20 billion a year that we pay as a member.

    That's a helluva lot of money for what ?

    I have often wondered where all this money goes if all of the member states are paying a similar amount.

    Yes, while I am not an actual get out voter I would love to have this question answered before I finally decide.
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    Get OUT

    Post by Nuthin fancy on Thu 21 Jan 2016, 4:07 pm

    Hi All,

    Cameron continues to get the s**ts while the immigration crisis deepens, Its NOT going to go away, but INCREASE, and the populations of decent democratic countries within the 'EUSSR GRASP' will continue to suffer.

    The whole organisation ( despite if we are in or otherwiswe ) is set to self destruct if this mess continues, The fact we have learned today that Goldman Sachs is going to bankroll the 'IN' Campaign should be enough for the public of this country to RUN to the polls and get us out!!

    To partly answer your question ZATH.( and there is LOADS more information as to where your money dissapears to ) The immense cost of legislation and administrative support, plus physicaly MOVING the parliament sessions from Brussels to Strasbourg and back cost a small fortune ( its called expenses, and the 'Brussels Trouser' brigade are the world leaders at obtaining freebies and perks at YOUR expense ). They also like to spend vast millions on 'vital projects' such as establishing that we do no have the wrong shape or size of bananas...I could go on!!!.

    Ask yourself this, why will the auditors STILL NOT approve the books of this organisation ??. Can you honestly tell me of any business that would be run in that fashion, as according to my calculation they would have been bankrupt years ago.

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    Re: Could we get an 'out' vote??

    Post by papa_umau on Fri 22 Jan 2016, 11:59 am

    The net payment is more like 12 billion after we get back the subsidies for the CFP and CAP systems.

    Having said that I have to agree with Technician that just like many other governments the money they get from the members states is treated as easy-come-easy-go.

    If we multiply that 12 billion by the 28 member states the total net income for the EU adds up to 336 billion a year.

    THAT is one of the things I hope that Cameron can do something about before the vote is run.


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    Re: Could we get an 'out' vote??

    Post by Gandhi on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 8:17 am

    I think we should learn a lesson from our national animal, the sheep.

    When times are hard (or the weather turns icy) they huddle together in groups for safety.

    The economic climate is currently very icy and storm clouds continue to gather so i would say the UKs chance of survival is with parttners, not on its own. We do more business with Europe than most other countries and to cut off this safety net because of some idiot with an isolationist mantra would be suicide.

    Final paragraph deleted as it has been considered as a personal attack

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    Re: Could we get an 'out' vote??

    Post by Nuthin fancy on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 8:59 am

    Gandhi,

    First of all you know NOTHING about me or my profession or where I worked.

    I can tell you that from the age of 16 I have worked constantly and studied ( in fact I studied for almost 20 years to get my qualifications, and it was damned hard work ) I worked for the public sector in the NHS and later as a university academic. ( In social science and managment, so having a PhD in the subject I think I may know what I am talking about )

    In all those years I never once 'scrounged' off the state; was fortunate to be in work and paid all my taxes and fees for my studies. My parents were working class and I got no 'handouts' from anyone. All I have now I have managed to 'save for', I have a public sector pension after 40 years of work...big deal. MY Choice.

    Just show me HOW I have suckled off the taxpayer. This is a forum which I had hoped had grown out of personal attacks. I wish you well G, but don't spout to me about things you know NOTHING about or make presumptions about what someone has or has not done. And it appears your knowledge of the EU and its organisation is close to ZERO

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    Re: Could we get an 'out' vote??

    Post by papa_umau on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 12:05 pm

    Please take it easy chaps as even although this item is a very hot one at the moment we really must try to not get personal about how we defend our stances over this very contentious subject.


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    Re: Could we get an 'out' vote??

    Post by Hell's Granny on Wed 27 Jan 2016, 3:40 pm

    I have mixed feelings about the EU.

    I feel it was a mistake to join in the first place, and in doing so we kicked the Commonwealth (from where we used to get our supplies) in the teeth. They have since found other markets for their goods. Should we leave the EU, we will find it hard to establish new lines of supply.

    With the Shengen Agreement in pieces, and EU countries reintroducing Border Controls, I am starting to lean towards exit, but not fully convinced at present. I forsee too many pitfalls with this 'kneejerk' Government.
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    Re: Could we get an 'out' vote??

    Post by papa_umau on Thu 28 Jan 2016, 12:53 pm

    Well said again HG.

    I have always said that the crude act of just pulling out is going to be a destructive one and what we should be doing instead is getting right in there and forming up new friends in order to change what is wrong in the EU and the EC.

    There is a lot wrong in Europe but throwing the baby out with the bath-water would be a really stupid thing to do.


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    Re: Could we get an 'out' vote??

    Post by Gandhi on Fri 29 Jan 2016, 8:18 am

    Tech - Apologies if I offended you that wasnt the intention, but you have been posting your career history on and off pretty much as you described so I do know you have been working in the public sector for many years, As such you are shielded from the real world should the economy collapse. The taxpayer funds the NHS and further education so I cant see why you are in denial.

    Paps (another public sector benefactor) once said the civil service was populated by people with right wing views and until that changes nothing will change - maybe he was right.

    Meanwhile back to your original post you quote a bankrupt country with a population the size of Coventry and a country with fabulous oil wealth divided amongst a population the same as Scotland. Neither make a suitable example when considering whether to commit economic suicide or not. You should compare us to France/Germany/Italy

    As to my own experience of the EU it is considerable - I have worked in most of Western Europe throughout my life and know that the situation in the UK is far worse generally thanks to the jobsworths in the UK government. I used to drive thousands of miles around the mainland and the only traffic jams i saw were on the UK motorways.

    I do agree there is room for improvement however, though not that you need to throw your toys out of the pram to achieve it. Farage is a dangerous man - I would have thought you were intelligent enough to see through him.
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    Re: Could we get an 'out' vote??

    Post by papa_umau on Fri 29 Jan 2016, 2:17 pm

    I have never supported Farage and his cohorts as I know they are driven mainly by xenophobic hatred and fear of uncontrolled immigration and little else.

    Where you get that idea about me from I have no clue.

    Of course, like any person who thrives on confrontation you are only happy when people are arguing.

    I let you have your regular rants as on the odd occasion you speak some sense, but do not push the boundaries too far here as even in this latest characterisation you too can be very easily cut from the body of the board.


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    Re: Could we get an 'out' vote??

    Post by zathrus on Fri 29 Jan 2016, 2:47 pm

    Maybe we should remember that it was the Tories and Edward Heath that forty years ago took us into the European Common Market and that fateful step eventually led us into full EU membership.

    While I hate the thought of so much UK taxpayers money going into that wasteful group of countries I think that if this layout was reduced and some control was made over the "Open Borders" or Shengen agreement most people in Britain would be easily persuaded that being in Europe is not so bad after all.

    BTW, we are not signatories to the Shengen group of countries.
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    Re: Could we get an 'out' vote??

    Post by papa_umau on Sat 30 Jan 2016, 12:33 pm

    Knowing that we are not signatories to the Shengen "open-borders" policy, I have often wondered why we have to keep our borders open for EU immigrants.

    Anybody ?


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    Re: Could we get an 'out' vote??

    Post by Hell's Granny on Sat 13 Feb 2016, 4:36 pm

    No idea; personally if we leave I think the Channel Tunnel should close. It was originally Napoleon Bonaparte's dream.
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    Re: Could we get an 'out' vote??

    Post by papa_umau on Sun 14 Feb 2016, 1:05 pm

    Sorry, but I cannot advocate the shutting of the chunnel as many thousands of people happily use it every day in both directions.

    What we need to do is to simplify the "coming in" rules and apply them with veracity at the tunnel exit.

    The Shengen agreement in Europe is now being seen as a very poor law, so I think the safer way to go would be to re-introduce the border controls at every European border, including ours, until the refugee and the asylum seeker problem is sorted at source.


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