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    The European question: is it wrong ?

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    papa_umau
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    The European question: is it wrong ?

    Post by papa_umau on Tue 01 Sep 2015, 12:34 pm

    EU referendum: Watchdog urges changes to question.

    The elections watchdog has recommended a change to the question to be put to voters in a future EU referendum.

    The Electoral Commission said the wording proposed by ministers - "should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union?" - could be perceived as biased to the status quo.

    It has proposed adding the words "or leave the European Union?"

    HERE is this question as pointed out by the BBC News.




    Something tells me that the source of this idea to change this question to make it easier to vote for OUT has come from a lobby that wants to make it easier to get an out vote result success.

    What say you ?


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    Nuthin fancy
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    Post by Nuthin fancy on Tue 01 Sep 2015, 2:07 pm

    Hi all,

    You would not think it difficult to set iup the questions, here.

    1. I wish the UK to remain part of the EU

    2. I wish the Uk to leave the EU

    Job done.

    Of course all sides will be barganing for position. One great thing about leaving is that we will avoid the mad rush toward de-democrasation and 'world government' which is the ultimate aim of the EU chancers.

    By the way the longer we see this 'charade' called immigration and the hordes deperate to invade the Uk carry on the stronger the NO position will be. Could not come at a worst timne for Cameron, or Merkel. The EU is clueless, and in the sh*t of their own making...You could not have made it up !!! I think Nigel Farage may well benefit here and play his trump card.

    Technician
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    Re: The European question: is it wrong ?

    Post by papa_umau on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 11:01 am

    All of the members of the Shengen agreement, ( which allows for free travel across borders ), are now beginning to think that this open-borders plan was not a good idea after all.

    Although Britain was not a signatory to the Shengen agreement and as such we do not promise that our borders will be open for anybody in the EU to come here, I do think that the English Channel is probably one of the best borders we might want.

    Having said this, I do think that we could take more of the refugees from Syria when we think how many Germany and others have already taken.


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    Post by Nuthin fancy on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 2:31 pm

    Hi All,

    Well Paps, perghaps you can see now that it is all starting to fall apart; first the 'Euro', now this. I don't have problems with 'refugees' who are escaping persecution, although this Island is getting pretty damn full already ( Thanks to Labour allowing 4 million in and the efforts of Tony Blair the war criminal in helping destabalise further a lunatic middle east ). Funny how we don't see any 'refugees' going the other way aint it, unless they happen to be religious fanatics. To quote the press recently:  'Like the Euro, the Schengen zone has failed its first test. Both were fair-weather schemes; both are being shredded in the high winds of political crisis'. The surge in migration from Africa and the Middle East is wrecking the concept of a border-free EU.  ( Nigel says we aint got any borders now anyway !!)


    Yesterday, David Cameron accepted the Electoral Commission’s advice that his preferred wording for the ballot paper was loaded and, to his credit, accepted its proposed version instead.

    So, instead of voting ‘yes’ or ‘no’, we will be asked to vote to ‘remain’ or ‘leave’. Frankly, events across the Channel are making a ‘leave’ vote more and more likely. Eurosceptics are having a field day, and Cameron is getting deeper in the sh*t, as he needs Merkels support to get any sort of Eu concession, and she wants us to take MORE migrants!!!

    Well, trade figures out this week have shown that Britains trade with the rest of the world is better than that with the whole of the EU, again dispeling the myth that the Uk could not cope if it left the EU. Well, while I wish no suffering an anyone, I hope this border mess continues and shows us ( If we cannot see already ) the total dogs dinner this is. It is THAT which shall inspire the populace of this country to vote NO, and the longer this farce continues the more likeley that will be.....Bring on the NO vote, let MS Sturgeon throw a huffy fit, make Scotland independent..then you can have em all!!!

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    Re: The European question: is it wrong ?

    Post by papa_umau on Thu 03 Sep 2015, 11:36 am

    You Obviously feel very strong about this Technician and  believe me, I do know where you are coming from.

    I do agree that this little island is bustin at the seams and could only take a few more refugees before the wall will have to come down hard.

    You mentioned that Stugeon could take "them all" if we gained independence, but while that is a foolish statement, I am sure that we could take another million or so when we consider that the total population of Scotland is less than the population living in London alone.

    Of course if we were to take those numbers of immigrants we would have to find the money to help to look after them until they could find their feet, get adequate housing and jobs.

    After seeing the faces of those drowned, crying and bleeding children in the newspaper today I don't know why the whole of the European Union cannot take a fair share of these lost and tortured people.

    It's about humanity and it is looking as if we are losing ours as we fight to push these people back into the sea.

    This country calls itself a Christian country but if that is how Christianity works I am glad that I am not one of them.


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    Re: The European question: is it wrong ?

    Post by zathrus on Thu 03 Sep 2015, 12:05 pm

    I admit that I have to agree with Technician on this one.

    Surely it is easy to word the referendum question into either "stay in" or "get out" and if it is worded this way the decision should not be hard to make.

    Mind you, if it IS worded in such a stark way we may see many of the "out" folks being a bit disturbed about the decision if it is formulated like that. They may actually vote to stay in if they are concerned about the hard "get out" option.
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    Post by Nuthin fancy on Thu 03 Sep 2015, 2:16 pm

    Hi all,

    Well the problem is as you say 'letting them in'. Why, we DONT know how many are in the UK who are illegal in the first place. The problem has to be stopped at source. Oh yes, we can let a 'few more in' but where does it stop???.

    The UK is seen as a soft touch. One guy trying to get to the UK from Calais was interviewed and he said ' I want to get to the Uk as they will give me a house'. I suggest to you all that a great many are economic migrants, but how do we know, we are not processing them, and our 'borders are open'....Oh yes, ask yourself will our kind govermnment give you or me a house ???....Like hell they will, and like many here I have paid taxes and NEVER taken any state handouts all my life !

    I do feel very strongly about this. We just cannot keep taking all and sundry. Our health and community sevices are at breaking point, and there will come a point when they  'snap'. There will be such a massive public outcry and backlash that NO government will be able to withstand the fallout if that happens.

    It is showing the EU dream for what it is, a total disaster for all concerned. Very many people are fleeing from radicals ( ISIS etc ). Those evil people are a scar on the civilised world. If only the democratic and decent cpuntries could come together to wipe that evil off the face of the earth not so many people may be fleeing in terror! We need to CLOSE our borders NOW and have proper control of who enters the UK.

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    Re: The European question: is it wrong ?

    Post by papa_umau on Fri 04 Sep 2015, 12:23 pm

    What that "one guy" said is not what the great majority of them say.

    I have experience of Eastern European immigrants coming to Scotland, and to a man/woman, they are hard-working and ambitious people.

    The skewed idea that they are all coming here to get benefits and to steal our jobs is a lie that has been put about by the xenophobes in our society.

    Now we need to look at this in a whole different way where we make room for the displaced peoples who are suffering to find peace and safety in Europe.

    Nicola Sturgeon hit out at Cameron's stance of "passing by on the other side" in the days of the "good samaritan" to say that we ALL, ( every country in Europe ), need to play our part in giving these tortured people and their desperate children succour instead of closing our borders to them.

    Who can fail to not feel anything when we see the face of the wee lad who drowned trying to get to safety ?



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    Post by Nuthin fancy on Fri 04 Sep 2015, 5:33 pm

    Hi All,

    Paps, its not that their plight is not desperate it is, but pure common sense tells us we CANNOT keep letting all and sundry in..Where will it end ????. The Hungarian Prime minister hit it on the head today when he said if this continues we will all loose our National Identities. We need border controls and NOW. Something needs to be done to tackle the problem at source, to STOP the movement in such vast numbers.

    What else do you suggest, open borders for all until we can neither move nor breathe in this country?. By the way there ARE too many economic migrants. What do we see at Caalis. many single young men. if they wanted a better life for the 'family' where are the wifes and children ?. I just don't buy it anymore, and neither do a lot of the population....This is soft touch Britain. As long as the incompetent EU are strutting about ordering us and other countries to do more, the worse it will get. I am afraid the chickens are coming home to roost now. We are placing sentimentality over reality.

    By the way, here is the result of the latest ITN (North of England ) Poll on if we should accept more mmigrants. The results speak for themselves: http://www.itv.com/news/granada/update/2015-09-04/itv-news-poll-should-the-north-west-take-in-more-refugees/

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    Re: The European question: is it wrong ?

    Post by papa_umau on Sat 05 Sep 2015, 12:06 pm

    Thanks for the link Technician.

    There is no doubt that each and every country in Europe can and should take it's fair share of these desperate people and once we have done all we can we can then tell them NO MORE.

    As the terrorists and religious nutcases turn their home countries into deserts these countries will continue to bleed with refugees until there are no people left in Syria or Afghanistan or Iraq etc'.

    Cameron was right, ( imagine me saying that ), that what these people need is a stable and safe home to go to and to stay in, and the only way that this will come about is if the terrorists are beaten and destroyed.

    Just as all of the European countries should take a share of the refugees at the moment, they should also each send a large army into the countries named above so that those countries can be at peace once again.

    Sadly, while we can defeat the overt armies of any of the Middle-Eastern countries we will never be able to defeat the radical religious groups that hate each other as well as everybody else.


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    Re: The European question: is it wrong ?

    Post by Angie baby on Sat 05 Sep 2015, 12:40 pm

    Easy to say Papa, but not so easy to do ! Mad

    If the moderate countries of the European Union were to form up one massive army in order to try to break the cycle of violence that is coming from the likes of ISIL, The Taliban, and Boko Haram, just to name a few, we would finish up with just another Crusade where it is the Christians against the Muslims all over again.

    This has been tried and failed because while it is fairly easy to break the bodies of the religious fanatics, it will never be easy to break their minds.

    Any religious doctrine that puts Muslim against Muslim, as with the Sunnies and the Shiites, that will keep them attempting genocide on their own people is NEVER going to be defeated by outside influence.

    All that could happen here would be the Armageddon that is spoken of in all of the religious books of old.

    At some time during this war some-one is going to have their finger poised over the red button that would trigger a conflagration in the middle East that could have a third world war effect.
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    Post by Nuthin fancy on Sat 05 Sep 2015, 5:10 pm

    Hi All,

    Both very sensible replies I agree. Its one hell of a problem. I don't favour action in any sesne ( we can trace a lot of this trouble back to the incompetence of Bush and Blair, whom in my oppinion should both be behind bars by now ! ). We certainly cannot just sit back. The laugh is, if it were not so tragic, is we hardly have any armed forces left in this country, and if Mr Corbyn has his way we will have even less. Problem, is every so often we are faced with situations which come and bite you in the backside and you need to respond.

    You will not change the twisted mindset of ISIS. The only way they know how to respond with is with bullets and bombs. I am afraid the answer may well be a joint, determined military force large enopugh to erradicate them, or cripple them so much that they are reduced to a buch of also rans. I think it could be done, but I certainly don't think the political will is there in the EU. In all probability the situation will cool down and not be a central news issue only to surface again ( like the crippled Euro and the Greek tradgedy ) at a later date. Result: no solution !!!

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    Re: The European question: is it wrong ?

    Post by papa_umau on Sun 06 Sep 2015, 12:23 pm

    I can see what you are getting at there Angie, and Technician, but shortly afterwards we will see the rumbles that will come back when our soldiers start to die in the Middle East all over again.

    For a strange and twisted reason the likes of ISIL WANT us to start a new Crusade against them with boots on the ground but as we all agree, that could probably just escalate to some idiot eventually exploding the bomb.

    The Israelis have the bomb and the wherewithall to deliver it, both India and Pakistan also have it and I would not be one bit surprised if Iran has it too.

    If ever the likes of ISIL get their hands on a nuclear bomb they would not hesitate to use it without a quandry and once it has been used it will be much easier for the other Nuclear nations to use it in reprisal.

    The Middle East is a cooking pot that threatens to boil over at any time and it is not going to be an easy task to turn off the gas under it.

    I know that this thread has worn off the subject a bit but the people who are being forced out of their homelands and creating such a sea of refugees are as a result of the larger strife in the Middle East.


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    Post by Nuthin fancy on Sun 06 Sep 2015, 2:21 pm

    Hi All,

    Once again dead right Paps.

    The problem is the longer ISIS impose their sickening rule the more refugees will be on the move. I don't know if they will respond to threat. its to me a little bit like the Japs in the 2nd World War. Total fanatics. it was only the dropping of the Atomic Bomb that in the end made then sue for peace ( and it took two goes ).

    I think that may be the only way they may budge, but even then I doubt it. It is certainly serious, as they are without doubt the poweder keg for another all out war; and as you say they would not hesitiate to use one if they had it.

    One thing is, I don't agree at all with what the Israelies are up to with the Palestinians etc, but if they are pi**ed off by ISIS they may well resort to such tactics, so they better be ruddy careful. Either way the ISIS crowd need eradicating from this earth.

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    Re: The European question: is it wrong ?

    Post by papa_umau on Mon 07 Sep 2015, 11:57 am

    They certainly do Technician. ( "Need to be eradicated off this earth" ).

    I too hate what the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians and this again can be seen as just another religious war that will never be easy to stop.

    Any time in the past that religious fervour has caused strife it has never been possible to stop it because of the deep doctrine that drives these wars.

    As John Lennon said in "Imagine", ( "and no religion too" ), the only way that such wars could be stopped would be if the world all became secular and then all we would need to worry about would be greed, politics, and envy.


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