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    Why are we having these cuts ?.

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    Why are we having these cuts ?.

    Post by Parliament.... on Thu 06 Dec 2012, 11:24 am

    Because the Tories are using the cover of reducing the deficit to remove the welfare State, and everything to do with care in the community which needs income tax payers money.

    We have been losing the vital role of what the State should provide via tax payers money since the Thatcher era, and now David Cameron is finished what Margaret Thatcher started, over 30 years ago.

    These cuts from the top down, are ideologically driven, they are nothing to do with a saving, or of cutting the deficit.

    The Tories want a small State, and the British want low income tax. And this is precisely what we have.

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    Re: Why are we having these cuts ?.

    Post by Guest on Thu 06 Dec 2012, 12:13 pm

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    Re: Why are we having these cuts ?.

    Post by papa_umau on Thu 06 Dec 2012, 12:16 pm

    Ivanhoe..... ( Unlike Clapco, I do feel that these points should be looked at ).

    I don't think that the Tories are just removing the welfare state, I think that they are also removing all of the public services by stealth.

    If they are allowed to get their unqualified head we will find that - just like in America - the corporations will take over the country and the public sector will shrink to next to nothingness.

    I agree that many of the Brits do not like direct taxation, ( and the politicos know this ), and that is why such taxation has been untouchable by just about all governments of the past twenty years or so.

    Because there are now no direct ways of getting money from the British citizens all of the past governments have resorted to using stealth tactics to raise extra taxes and because of these policies we have sleepwalked right into a high level of stealth-taxation that we do not see easily because we do not see this tax taken out of our pay-packets.

    This DOES NOT mean that we are a "low taxation" country; all it means is that we are taxed as highly as other countries are but we do not feel this money being taken out of our pockets and purses, purely because this money is not taken from us at source.


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    Re: Why are we having these cuts ?.

    Post by Parliament.... on Thu 06 Dec 2012, 12:46 pm

    papa_umau wrote:Ivanhoe..... ( Unlike Clapco, I do feel that these points should be looked at ).

    I don't think that the Tories are just removing the welfare state, I think that they are also removing all of the public services by stealth.

    If they are allowed to get their unqualified head we will find that - just like in America - the corporations will take over the country and the public sector will shrink to next to nothingness.

    I agree that many of the Brits do not like direct taxation, ( and the politicos know this ), and that is why such taxation has been untouchable by just about all governments of the past twenty years or so.

    Because there are now no direct ways of getting money from the British citizens all of the past governments have resorted to using stealth tactics to raise extra taxes and because of these policies we have sleepwalked right into a high level of stealth-taxation that we do not see easily because we do not see this tax taken out of our pay-packets.

    This DOES NOT mean that we are a "low taxation" country; all it means is that we are taxed as highly as other countries are but we do not feel this money being taken out of our pockets and purses, purely because this money is not taken from us at source.

    """"I don't think that the Tories are just removing the welfare state, I think that they are also removing all of the public services by stealth""""

    Papa, You are correct.

    I repeat, we are a "low income tax" nation. But we are a "high tax" nation due to stealth taxes.

    Since poll tax, and by stealth, we have been losing the vital role of the State, ie our communities are being devolved from central government funding, and the paying of local services is falling more and more onto local council tax payers.

    Margaret Thatcher began rolling back the State in the 80's, whilst also reducing income tax for all British workers, New Labour continued this premis, and Cameron is now finishing off what began in the 80's.









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    Re: Why are we having these cuts ?.

    Post by Guest on Thu 06 Dec 2012, 6:28 pm

    I'm not saying they shouldn't be looked at, just that Ivanhoe can say NOTHING without blaming it on Mrs Thatcher - a lot has happened in the 20 years + since she resigned and his posts are soooo tedious as a result.

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    Re: Why are we having these cuts ?.

    Post by TuppenceHapenny on Thu 06 Dec 2012, 10:20 pm

    Here Here!!!
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    Re: Why are we having these cuts ?.

    Post by papa_umau on Fri 07 Dec 2012, 10:47 am

    I honestly cannot blame Ivanhoe for hammering at the same point again and again as that particular point IS TRUE. Sometimes we need to be reminded about what direction our politics has taken over a number of years before we lose sight of what has happened, as if we do not remember what has gone before we are at great risk of repeating mistakes that we have forgotten about.


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    Re: Why are we having these cuts ?.

    Post by Parliament.... on Fri 07 Dec 2012, 10:53 am

    papa_umau wrote:I honestly cannot blame Ivanhoe for hammering at the same point again and again as that particular point IS TRUE. Sometimes we need to be reminded about what direction our politics has taken over a number of years before we lose sight of what has happened, as if we do not remember what has gone before we are at great risk of repeating mistakes that we have forgotten about.

    Papa, We have had this right wing free market since the 80's because of Tory voters. I feel the British Tory voter is his/her own worst enemy.

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    Re: Why are we having these cuts ?.

    Post by papa_umau on Fri 07 Dec 2012, 11:13 am

    I think that there is now enough evidence that the Tory voters are dwindling as the Tory party goes further and further to the right.

    What happened at the last election - where the political Tories did not get enough votes to form a government - is a great example as to how the Tories are fragmenting and polarising so that many of their votes are now being lost to parties like the UKIP and the BNP.

    This indication alone is good enough to tell us that the Tory party - as a centre-ground political force - is spent and tired and that many of the people of Britain, that used to honestly feel that Toryism was the right way to go, now feel that that particular philosophy has had it's day and needs replacing by something that serves the people much better than rightism does.


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    Re: Why are we having these cuts ?.

    Post by Parliament.... on Fri 07 Dec 2012, 11:17 am

    papa_umau wrote:I think that there is now enough evidence that the Tory voters are dwindling as the Tory party goes further and further to the right.

    What happened at the last election - where the political Tories did not get enough votes to form a government - is a great example as to how the Tories are fragmenting and polarising so that many of their votes are now being lost to parties like the UKIP and the BNP.

    This indication alone is good enough to tell us that the Tory party - as a centre-ground political force - is spent and tired and that many of the people of Britain, that used to honestly feel that Toryism was the right way to go, now feel that that particular philosophy has had it's day and needs replacing by something that serves the people much better than rightism does.

    The real problem here in my view is that pensioners particularly vote Conservative/Tory, just because their parents did, they have no idea the rotten core that is the Tory right wing today, and since Thatcher who began this rot over 30 years ago.
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    Re: Why are we having these cuts ?.

    Post by bowsertoad on Fri 07 Dec 2012, 11:27 am

    I am not a torrie by nature but by proxie due to the leader of my party siding with the blues. I totally agree that People blame the iron lady for the structure of todays government and the manner on which she is going about destroying important parts of being british, such as the NHS, the Rail system, Welfare and so on.

    Yes thatcher in the 80's did allot to destroy this but you got to go back to go back to MacMillian and the employment of Beeching as the catalyst or starting point of the obsession of privatisation and not Thatcher, she was just playing her part, and not the founder of the Torries love of privatisation.
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    Re: Why are we having these cuts ?.

    Post by bowsertoad on Fri 07 Dec 2012, 11:50 am

    @papa, thje torrie government is not strong, it needed the help of the Liberals to get into power, the problem I have is Ed rubberband is not a leader of men, I dont think he is the one to lead the country out of this situation

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    Re: Why are we having these cuts ?.

    Post by Parliament.... on Fri 07 Dec 2012, 11:56 am

    bowsertoad wrote:I am not a torrie by nature but by proxie due to the leader of my party siding with the blues. I totally agree that People blame the iron lady for the structure of todays government and the manner on which she is going about destroying important parts of being british, such as the NHS, the Rail system, Welfare and so on.

    Yes thatcher in the 80's did allot to destroy this but you got to go back to go back to MacMillian and the employment of Beeching as the catalyst or starting point of the obsession of privatisation and not Thatcher, she was just playing her part, and not the founder of the Torries love of privatisation.

    bowsertoad, You are wrong. Thatcher, and Reagan in the states, brought free market privatisation to both our countries in the 80's.

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    Re: Why are we having these cuts ?.

    Post by bowsertoad on Fri 07 Dec 2012, 12:00 pm

    the privitisation and the closure of trains stations and fringe train lines to make way for the motor ways in the 50's and sixties is where the ideas and process came from in modern politics, Ron was not the first person to action privatisation in the US, that falls at the feet of Gerald Ford in the seventies to cull the growing deficit from his first term, reegan like thatcher just continued the work of the previous leaders.

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    Re: Why are we having these cuts ?.

    Post by Parliament.... on Fri 07 Dec 2012, 12:20 pm

    bowsertoad wrote:the privitisation and the closure of trains stations and fringe train lines to make way for the motor ways in the 50's and sixties is where the ideas and process came from in modern politics, Ron was not the first person to action privatisation in the US, that falls at the feet of Gerald Ford in the seventies to cull the growing deficit from his first term, reegan like thatcher just continued the work of the previous leaders.

    Your wrong. Prior to Thatcher, we had left of centre Conservatism and left wing Labour. Neither were into privatisation.

    Thatcher brought privatisation to Britain.

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    Re: Why are we having these cuts ?.

    Post by Guest on Fri 07 Dec 2012, 12:21 pm

    D'Oh - you gone and spoiled it!

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    Re: Why are we having these cuts ?.

    Post by bowsertoad on Fri 07 Dec 2012, 12:35 pm

    so the beeching report, that preceeded magie thatchers rise to power was not a statement of intent towards Privatisation of a national service? and the biulding of road within the UK which fell under beechings control was a not a privatised enterprise?

    I think saying I am wrong is a bit narrow minded, and is fueled by your perso-nal feelings towards Thatcher, hell if we want to look at the origins of privatisation you can go back to the east India Company and companies of a simular nature, well before thatcher was a twinkle in her fathers nutsack.

    Is it intend to be so politically closed minded, and to blame thatcher for the downfall of a country whic started to fall apart before our queen sat on the throne?
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    Re: Why are we having these cuts ?.

    Post by TuppenceHapenny on Fri 07 Dec 2012, 12:42 pm

    Bowser you said "that falls at the feet of Gerald Ford in the seventies", sorry that line really is just TOOOO good to pass up. Sorry sweetie, Gerry fell at everyones feet so nowt can be blamed on him. cheers On a more serious note-Carter was a less inept Prez than Ford. Half the time I forget him in the lineup. Nilthing that he was.
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    Re: Why are we having these cuts ?.

    Post by bowsertoad on Fri 07 Dec 2012, 12:49 pm

    Ford will always be remembered for the man that forgave nixon, I know he is not the greatest president in the history of the states, as you said he was not the worst, but he had a hand in Regan (actuallity Bush seniors) changes to the US economy and the Privatisation of services, his model and ideals were the foundations of the Regan(sorry Bush Snr) policies and bills. I apologise for putting the statement on my last posting.

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    Re: Why are we having these cuts ?.

    Post by Parliament.... on Fri 07 Dec 2012, 12:54 pm

    bowsertoad wrote:so the beeching report, that preceeded magie thatchers rise to power was not a statement of intent towards Privatisation of a national service? and the biulding of road within the UK which fell under beechings control was a not a privatised enterprise?

    I think saying I am wrong is a bit narrow minded, and is fueled by your perso-nal feelings towards Thatcher, hell if we want to look at the origins of privatisation you can go back to the east India Company and companies of a simular nature, well before thatcher was a twinkle in her fathers nutsack.

    Is it intend to be so politically closed minded, and to blame thatcher for the downfall of a country whic started to fall apart before our queen sat on the throne?

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    Care of Wiki.

    The policy of privatisation has been called "a crucial ingredient of Thatcherism".[110] After the 1983 election the sale of state utilities accelerated;[111]more than 29 billion was raised from the sale of nationalised industries, and another 18 billion from the sale of council houses.[112]

    The process of privatisation, especially the preparation of nationalised industries for privatisation, was associated with marked improvements in performance, particularly in terms of labour productivity.[113] Some of the privatised industries, including gas, water, and electricity, were natural monopolies for which privatisation involved little increase in competition.

    The privatised industries that demonstrated improvement often did so while still under state ownership. British Steel, for instance, made great gains in profitability while still a nationalised industry under the government-appointed chairmanship of Ian MacGregor, who faced down trade-union opposition to close plants and reduce the workforce by half.[114] Regulation was also significantly expanded to compensate for the loss of direct government control, with the foundation of regulatory bodies like Ofgas, Oftel and the National Rivers Authority.[115] There was no clear pattern to the degree of competition, regulation, and performance among the privatised industries;[113] in most cases privatisation benefitted consumers in terms of lower prices and improved efficiency, but the results overall were "mixed".[116]

    Thatcher always resisted rail privatisation, and was said to have told Transport Secretary Nicholas Ridley "Railway privatisation will be the Waterloo of this government. Please never mention the railways to me again." Shortly before her resignation, she accepted the arguments for privatising British Rail, which her successor John Major implemented in 1994.[117]
    The Economist later considered the move to have been "a disaster".[116]

    The privatisation of public assets was combined with financial deregulation in an attempt to fuel economic growth. Geoffrey Howe abolished Britain's exchange controls in 1979, allowing more capital to be invested in foreign markets, and the Big Bang of 1986 removed many restrictions on the London Stock Exchange. The Thatcher government encouraged growth in the finance and service sectors to compensate for Britain's ailing manufacturing industry.


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    Re: Why are we having these cuts ?.

    Post by Guest on Fri 07 Dec 2012, 12:57 pm

    Interesting article from the Torygraph about austerity in Sweden and Estonia

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/budget/9727144/Autumn-Statement-Young-lives-are-being-ruined-because-of-Britains-timid-Treasury.html

    Big difference in how socialist Sweden is handling the problem - with tax cuts!

    Seems the Conservatives are the new workers party with every penny of savings from welfare payments used for encouraging work and cutting the taxes of the low paid.

    Well done the coalition did I hear you say?

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    Re: Why are we having these cuts ?.

    Post by bowsertoad on Fri 07 Dec 2012, 1:02 pm

    Ivanhoe,

    Thank you for giving this information to me, I will now staret to blame Thatcher for the downfall of this country, and use her as the example of privitasation, because up to the point of thatcher driving Privatisation as part of "thatcherism", Privatisation didnt exist, and was not a policy, or a biudling block for what came centuries before the iron lady. I think you for opening my eyes to this narrowminded view, I believe that I too will now ingore history in politics and with in privatised enterprised up to 1979. I think that this will bring me on par with the blinkered views of christians that dinosaurs didnt exist, and the birth of christ was the birth of civilisation.

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    Re: Why are we having these cuts ?.

    Post by TuppenceHapenny on Fri 07 Dec 2012, 1:02 pm

    >>but he had a hand in Regan<<
    Bowser! LOLOLOL. Damn you CAN come up with em can't ya? Sorry. TOOO good! Thanks for that mental image.
    Ivanhore, How did you manage it? You foudn a DRY wiki article. I like Wiki, lots, but it's kinda like quoting the Sun as fact. It's great for leading articles down in the bib at the bottom.
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    Re: Why are we having these cuts ?.

    Post by bowsertoad on Fri 07 Dec 2012, 1:06 pm

    Regan was a puppet controlled by bush. simple. I am sorry for getting that side of my arguement wrong.
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    Re: Why are we having these cuts ?.

    Post by TuppenceHapenny on Fri 07 Dec 2012, 1:11 pm

    Bowser-I LIKED it, voted for it an everything!!
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