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    Milibands unite to urge 'living wage' for millions....

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    Milibands unite to urge 'living wage' for millions....

    Post by Parliament.... on Sun 04 Nov 2012, 4:59 pm

    Please go here folks, to read how the Miliband brothers are getting together to ensure that the "minimum wage" rises to be a "living wage" instead.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/nov/03/miliband-living-wage

    On the face of this, I could not agree more. But there is one big pothole under the next Labour Government.

    Can anybody guess the pothole ?



    Last edited by Ivanhoe on Sun 04 Nov 2012, 5:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Milibands unite to urge 'living wage' for millions....

    Post by Guest on Sun 04 Nov 2012, 5:05 pm

    This is what trolls do Ivanhoe. They post links to other websites on forums so as to raise their page rank. (you may have noticed ROB's also goes down) If you can't come up with an original post by yourself then please don't bother us with somebody else's - that is NOT what this forum is for. We could read all your posts simply by visiting the Guardian. Or not.

    Note by moderator:

    The policy in these forums is to NOT discourage the site-users from entering links that may connect to any subject that the writer wants to discuss.

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    Re: Milibands unite to urge 'living wage' for millions....

    Post by papa_umau on Mon 05 Nov 2012, 12:32 pm

    Don't know what you are getting at here Ivanhoe ?......"pothole ?"

    That aside I do already know that Ed Miliband and the Labour party have been planning a "living wage" instead of a "minimum wage" for some time now.

    The fact that the Miliband brothers have put their heads together for this latest policy is neither here nor there as far as I am concerned as if they are using this "new" policy to show that they are of "one mind" on this subject this point is really not all that relevant to the general ethos of the party.


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    Re: Milibands unite to urge 'living wage' for millions....

    Post by Parliament.... on Mon 05 Nov 2012, 12:50 pm

    papa_umau wrote:Don't know what you are getting at here Ivanhoe ?......"pothole ?"

    That aside I do already know that Ed Miliband and the Labour party have been planning a "living wage" instead of a "minimum wage" for some time now.

    The fact that the Miliband brothers have put their heads together for this latest policy is neither here nor there as far as I am concerned as if they are using this "new" policy to show that they are of "one mind" on this subject this point is really not all that relevant to the general ethos of the party.

    Yes Papa, "pothole".

    What the Milliband brothers are forgetting or not realising, albeit with the best of intentions here, is that the means test and the means test threshold which many millions of low waged workers are on due to being in receipt of means tested council tax and housing benefit.

    Because any extra money coming into means tested households, these households have to inform of changes in their circumstances, because means test workers are assessed regularly for a change in circumstances, and there fore a pay rise via a minimum wage increase could easily make these people worse off because they could end up paying more in rent and/or council tax.

    What needs to happen is abolition of the unjust council tax, and the building of low rented council houses, first. So people are taken out of the means test completely, then they can enjoy the fruits of their labour.

    Maybe pothole is the wrong word, maybe catch22 is a better term.
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    Re: Milibands unite to urge 'living wage' for millions....

    Post by papa_umau on Mon 05 Nov 2012, 1:37 pm

    It is true that many twists and turns in benefits means that some incomes in one direction can effect income in other directions.

    Mind you I have always felt that the "wage" paid by employers SHOULD be the wage that the workers need in order to subsist and give a reasonable life. The levels of the minimum wage do not do this as it is set at the moment.

    If a rise in wages means that certain benefits might be lost then that is fine by me as most people do not like having to accept benefits on top of any wage they may glean from working full time.



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    Re: Milibands unite to urge 'living wage' for millions....

    Post by Parliament.... on Mon 05 Nov 2012, 2:00 pm

    papa_umau wrote:It is true that many twists and turns in benefits means that some incomes in one direction can effect income in other directions.

    Mind you I have always felt that the "wage" paid by employers SHOULD be the wage that the workers need in order to subsist and give a reasonable life. The levels of the minimum wage do not do this as it is set at the moment.

    If a rise in wages means that certain benefits might be lost then that is fine by me as most people do not like having to accept benefits on top of any wage they may glean from working full time.


    I am refering to the fact that within the means test system, people on receiving a pay increase or a minimum wage, will not be any better off in their pocket. This is the point I'm making.

    And my solution to this has been already posted.
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    Re: Milibands unite to urge 'living wage' for millions....

    Post by papa_umau on Mon 05 Nov 2012, 2:10 pm

    Ivanhoe wrote:
    papa_umau wrote:It is true that many twists and turns in benefits means that some incomes in one direction can effect income in other directions.

    Mind you I have always felt that the "wage" paid by employers SHOULD be the wage that the workers need in order to subsist and give a reasonable life. The levels of the minimum wage do not do this as it is set at the moment.

    If a rise in wages means that certain benefits might be lost then that is fine by me as most people do not like having to accept benefits on top of any wage they may glean from working full time.


    I am refering to the fact that within the means test system, people on receiving a pay increase or a minimum wage, will not be any better off in their pocket. This is the point I'm making.

    And my solution to this has been already posted.

    The whole idea behind a "living wage" is for the person receiving that "living wage" to not then have to try to claim benefits on top.

    We already agree that the "means-test" is a clumsy and expensive tool and I think we would both like that the wages that a person receives for doing a full working week should be good enough to keep them out of poverty. As it is set at the moment it does NOT do this and then their IS a requirement to try to get more money via the means test and the benefits system.


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    Re: Milibands unite to urge 'living wage' for millions....

    Post by Parliament.... on Mon 05 Nov 2012, 2:19 pm

    papa_umau wrote:
    Ivanhoe wrote:
    papa_umau wrote:It is true that many twists and turns in benefits means that some incomes in one direction can effect income in other directions.

    Mind you I have always felt that the "wage" paid by employers SHOULD be the wage that the workers need in order to subsist and give a reasonable life. The levels of the minimum wage do not do this as it is set at the moment.

    If a rise in wages means that certain benefits might be lost then that is fine by me as most people do not like having to accept benefits on top of any wage they may glean from working full time.


    I am refering to the fact that within the means test system, people on receiving a pay increase or a minimum wage, will not be any better off in their pocket. This is the point I'm making.

    And my solution to this has been already posted.

    The whole idea behind a "living wage" is for the person receiving that "living wage" to not then have to try to claim benefits on top.

    We already agree that the "means-test" is a clumsy and expensive tool and I think we would both like that the wages that a person receives for doing a full working week should be good enough to keep them out of poverty. As it is set at the moment it does NOT do this and then their IS a requirement to try to get more money via the means test and the benefits system.


    Papa, I'm looking further at this than you clearly are.

    People on means tested benefits will not welcome an increase in their wages when they know they wont get that increase. That it will be swallowed up via having to pay more rent and/or council tax.

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    Re: Milibands unite to urge 'living wage' for millions....

    Post by papa_umau on Tue 06 Nov 2012, 12:23 pm

    I think that you are concerning yourself with something here that will not necessarily happen !

    I will say it again...."The whole point of a "living wage" is so that the person gets paid enough for working a full week or month so that they can then, afterwards, live reasonably comfortably in today's financial climate, without having to try to acquire, or hold on to, money paid via the means test system !"

    The means test system is a clumsy, expensive and awkward tool that is supposed to guarantee that the poorest people at the bottom end have enough money to subsist on. IT FAILS to do this job and as it is failing it costs the rest of the working taxpayers a lot of money to finance.

    Sadly, this new "living wage" suggested by government reformers will not even be a statutory law and unlike the "minimum wage" it is going to be pushed on a voluntary basis. Many of the employers out there will simply not pay it as they will be of the opinion that they cannot afford it and still stay in business. This situation - of course - will automatically bring in the outdated means-test system so that some of these people - who have not received this extra money for working - may qualify for extra credits or benefits on welfare.

    Oh and BTW... I am well acquainted with how the means-test works and I am already aware that - in some cases - extra money added to the working but insufficient minimum wage by the proposed "living wage" will be lost by this money being taken off the means-tested payments that these people already receive.

    ( This is NOT an accident BTW as the reformers in government - of whatever hue - want the cost to government, ( via the means test expense ), reduced, by moving this cost onto the heads of the employers out there ).

    The whole - and I think spurious - reasoning behind the means-test is that it should be a buffer for income that cannot be acquired elsewhere and that after all monies have been added together - from whatever sources - the means test is supposed to guarantee that that person finishes up with enough income to hold them out of poverty.

    This system just does not work and It is always going to be better for any worker to be able to EARN the money he or she needs to subsist than having to go cap-in-hand for government handouts via any broken means-test system.


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    Re: Milibands unite to urge 'living wage' for millions....

    Post by Guest on Tue 06 Nov 2012, 12:42 pm

    Meanwhile while the millipedes talk about it - the Conservatives are already figuring out how to implement it

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newsvideo/uk-politics-video/9655757/Boris-Johnson-living-wage-makes-economic-sense-for-London.html

    THANK HEAVENS FOR THE COALITION!

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    Re: Milibands unite to urge 'living wage' for millions....

    Post by papa_umau on Tue 06 Nov 2012, 1:08 pm

    Of course "our Boris" wants this to be introduced in London as the costs of living in London and in some parts of the Highlands and Islands in Scotland are far higher than in other parts of the country.

    In fact I am really surprised that you are not taking your usual tack whereby you defend anything that makes the working costs on the small employers out there harder - as I already said in my piece - above - if you actually read it.

    I am also sure that Boris knows that he will be annoying the rest of the rightists out there as he defends what has come to be known as a "living wage" as very few of them, including Cameron and Osborne, will support this proposed "living wage" if it is going to cost their pals in commerce and business more via larger overheads. ( It is well known that wages are the highest overhead in any business ).

    C'mon mate, it's make your mind up time !


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    Re: Milibands unite to urge 'living wage' for millions....

    Post by Parliament.... on Tue 06 Nov 2012, 2:00 pm

    papa_umau wrote:I think that you are concerning yourself with something here that will not necessarily happen !

    I will say it again...."The whole point of a "living wage" is so that the person gets paid enough for working a full week or month so that they can then, afterwards, live reasonably comfortably in today's financial climate, without having to try to acquire, or hold on to, money paid via the means test system !"

    The means test system is a clumsy, expensive and awkward tool that is supposed to guarantee that the poorest people at the bottom end have enough money to subsist on. IT FAILS to do this job and as it is failing it costs the rest of the working taxpayers a lot of money to finance.

    Sadly, this new "living wage" suggested by government reformers will not even be a statutory law and unlike the "minimum wage" it is going to be pushed on a voluntary basis. Many of the employers out there will simply not pay it as they will be of the opinion that they cannot afford it and still stay in business. This situation - of course - will automatically bring in the outdated means-test system so that some of these people - who have not received this extra money for working - may qualify for extra credits or benefits on welfare.

    Oh and BTW... I am well acquainted with how the means-test works and I am already aware that - in some cases - extra money added to the working but insufficient minimum wage by the proposed "living wage" will be lost by this money being taken off the means-tested payments that these people already receive.

    ( This is NOT an accident BTW as the reformers in government - of whatever hue - want the cost to government, ( via the means test expense ), reduced, by moving this cost onto the heads of the employers out there ).

    The whole - and I think spurious - reasoning behind the means-test is that it should be a buffer for income that cannot be acquired elsewhere and that after all monies have been added together - from whatever sources - the means test is supposed to guarantee that that person finishes up with enough income to hold them out of poverty.

    This system just does not work and It is always going to be better for any worker to be able to EARN the money he or she needs to subsist than having to go cap-in-hand for government handouts via any broken means-test system.

    """"""""I think that you are concerning yourself with something here that will not necessarily happen !""""""

    Papa, Im concerning myself with something that is omni-present around the UK for people who privately rent. The means test system is a financial trap for people who want to earn more money in a second or third job if they are luck enough to get one.

    We Brit's already work the longest hours in Europe, but in the UK, if a person is in receipt of housing and/or council benefit and they try for a second or third job, what they earn extra wont go into their pockets, it will go pay pay extra council tax and extra rents.

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    Re: Milibands unite to urge 'living wage' for millions....

    Post by Parliament.... on Tue 06 Nov 2012, 2:02 pm

    papa_umau wrote:Of course "our Boris" wants this to be introduced in London as the costs of living in London and in some parts of the Highlands and Islands in Scotland are far higher than in other parts of the country.

    In fact I am really surprised that you are not taking your usual tack whereby you defend anything that makes the working costs on the small employers out there harder - as I already said in my piece - above - if you actually read it.

    I am also sure that Boris knows that he will be annoying the rest of the rightists out there as he defends what has come to be known as a "living wage" as very few of them, including Cameron and Osborne, will support this proposed "living wage" if it is going to cost their pals in commerce and business more via larger overheads. ( It is well known that wages are the highest overhead in any business ).

    C'mon mate, it's make your mind up time !

    Papa, a Tory wanting a living wage ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

    Boris Johnson has no choice but to go with this for obvious reasons.
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    Re: Milibands unite to urge 'living wage' for millions....

    Post by papa_umau on Tue 06 Nov 2012, 2:36 pm

    Yes Ivanhoe, this stance by Boris Johnston certainly does look like a bit of a paradox, but anybody that knows Boris Johnston will also know that he is NOT a Tory yes-man by any means and he knows what he thinks the Londoners need to live a reasonable life.

    I have more respect and liking for Boris Johnston than I will ever have for Cameron or Osborne, even if he is a Tory through and through and at times a bit of a buffoon.

    I do not know what these "obvious reasons" are that you talk about, but I do know that our Boris is clear about what his voters - from all political shades - need from him.


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    Re: Milibands unite to urge 'living wage' for millions....

    Post by Parliament.... on Tue 06 Nov 2012, 2:46 pm

    papa_umau wrote:Yes Ivanhoe, this stance by Boris Johnston certainly does look like a bit of a paradox, but anybody that knows Boris Johnston will also know that he is NOT a Tory yes-man by any means and he knows what he thinks the Londoners need to live a reasonable life.

    I have more respect and liking for Boris Johnston than I will ever have for Cameron or Osborne, even if he is a Tory through and through and at times a bit of a buffoon.

    I do not know what these "obvious reasons" are that you talk about, but I do know that our Boris is clear about what his voters - from all political shades - need from him.

    Papa, Boris Johnson is a right wight wing Tory, and they would have us all working for nothing if they could.

    I have no respect for any right wing Tory. Literally.
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    Re: Milibands unite to urge 'living wage' for millions....

    Post by papa_umau on Wed 07 Nov 2012, 10:45 am

    As I often say to you Ivanhoe.... "We simply cannot safely or fairly paint every Tory with the same prejudiced brush !"

    ( In other words it is not good or fair to stereotype anyone or any body with the failures of some ).

    Sometimes we have to give praise where such praise is required.


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    Re: Milibands unite to urge 'living wage' for millions....

    Post by Parliament.... on Wed 07 Nov 2012, 10:49 am

    papa_umau wrote:As I often say to you Ivanhoe.... "We simply cannot safely or fairly paint every Tory with the same prejudiced brush !"

    ( In other words it is not good or fair to stereotype anyone or any body with the failures of some ).

    Sometimes we have to give praise where such praise is required.

    Credit where credit is due Papa, I live by that. But a right wing Tory is a right wing Tory.

    Papa, PM's like the late Ted Heath who lead a left of centre left wing small "c" Conservative party and Government were a kinder breed.

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    Re: Milibands unite to urge 'living wage' for millions....

    Post by Guest on Wed 07 Nov 2012, 10:51 am

    I remember the three day week Ivanhoe - Heath was a loser. The upside is he joined the EU and gave Mrs Thatcher her first break

    Woo hoo!

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    Re: Milibands unite to urge 'living wage' for millions....

    Post by papa_umau on Wed 07 Nov 2012, 11:11 am

    All I say is that individuals are individuals and they have to be treated as such.

    While a lot of political types do allow dogma to shape them many of these people, who do not, are courageous enough to stand out from that baying mob and be counted.

    I consider Boris Johnston to be one of those people !

    God help us all if our Boris ever gets the Prime Minister's job as such a man in such a position would be ten times more dangerous than Cameron could ever be.


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    Re: Milibands unite to urge 'living wage' for millions....

    Post by Parliament.... on Wed 07 Nov 2012, 11:48 am

    papa_umau wrote:All I say is that individuals are individuals and they have to be treated as such.

    While a lot of political types do allow dogma to shape them many of these people, who do not, are courageous enough to stand out from that baying mob and be counted.

    I consider Boris Johnston to be one of those people !

    God help us all if our Boris ever gets the Prime Minister's job as such a man in such a position would be ten times more dangerous than Cameron could ever be.

    Yes, I could not agree more Papa. It's not so much that Bilko was clever. It was that his men were so stupid.
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    Re: Milibands unite to urge 'living wage' for millions....

    Post by papa_umau on Thu 08 Nov 2012, 11:29 am

    So true Ivanhoe, but this "Bilko" IS a lot smarter than he looks !


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    Re: Milibands unite to urge 'living wage' for millions....

    Post by Parliament.... on Thu 08 Nov 2012, 11:42 am

    papa_umau wrote:So true Ivanhoe, but this "Bilko" IS a lot smarter than he looks !

    Papa, But are his men just as stupid, or are they wiser ?

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    Re: Milibands unite to urge 'living wage' for millions....

    Post by papa_umau on Thu 08 Nov 2012, 11:56 am

    As I have said many times before and will not stop saying...... "It is dangerous to stereotype any group of individuals as there are always a number of individuals in those groups that do not conform to the stereotype". This is usually found on a person to person basis.


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    Re: Milibands unite to urge 'living wage' for millions....

    Post by Parliament.... on Thu 08 Nov 2012, 12:19 pm

    papa_umau wrote:As I have said many times before and will not stop saying...... "It is dangerous to stereotype any group of individuals as there are always a number of individuals in those groups that do not conform to the stereotype". This is usually found on a person to person basis.

    Papa, To quote actor Hugh Grant some time ago when Murdoch was in the dock. High Grant was on the lawn outside the House Commons I believe.

    He was asked did he have anything to say to Rupert Murdoch ?. Hugh Grant, said "yes". "Rupert Murdoch, why have you ruined my country" ? Unquote.

    I rest my case Papa.

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    Re: Milibands unite to urge 'living wage' for millions....

    Post by Guest on Thu 08 Nov 2012, 12:24 pm

    Is that the same Hugh Grant that got busted for having a $10 blow job with a prostitute? What has he got to say that we should take notice of?

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