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    Britain's jobless, this is what they go through

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    Britain's jobless, this is what they go through

    Post by Parliament.... on Sat 18 Aug 2012, 5:07 pm

    Please go to this link, it's about Britain's jobless, and what they go through, in detail.

    I have to be honest and say that I have never subscribed to the "benefit scrounger" way of thinking. I hope that the following information contained in this link will be of interest and concern to us all.

    Here's the link.

    http://www.workingrights.co.uk/UnemploymentBenefit.html

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    Re: Britain's jobless, this is what they go through

    Post by papa_umau on Sun 19 Aug 2012, 11:24 am

    Thanks for that Ivanhoe !

    I think that most of us know that the benefits system is far too complicated and expensive to run as it stands and that is why this government are to introduce - in 2013 - the "Universal Benefits Scheme" ( Also known as "Universal Credits" ).

    One of the main problems that is being found with this "one-size-fits-all" policy is that while it is supposed to be based on known income levels instead of the expensive means-test, this means that many very rich people are going to get this money while a lot of people who previously qualified for it before under the means test regulations might not now qualify.

    The whole idea was based around being able to find out instantly - via a new computer system - what people are paying in income-tax and at what levels they are taxed at, ( including the ones in the super-tax bracket ), but it seems that this new computer system is not up to the job as it has already failed miserably.

    HERE and HERE are two articles that discuss these problems.

    Please read them and come back and discuss these reports when you can.


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    Papa......



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    Re: Britain's jobless, this is what they go through

    Post by Parliament.... on Sun 19 Aug 2012, 12:04 pm

    papa_umau wrote:Thanks for that Ivanhoe !

    I think that most of us know that the benefits system is far too complicated and expensive to run as it stands and that is why this government are to introduce - in 2013 - the "Universal Benefits Scheme" ( Also known as "Universal Credits" ).

    One of the main problems that is being found with this "one-size-fits-all" policy is that while it is supposed to be based on known income levels instead of the expensive means-test, this means that many very rich people are going to get this money while a lot of people who previously qualified for it before under the means test regulations might not now qualify.

    The whole idea was based around being able to find out instantly - via a new computer system - what people are paying in income-tax and at what levels they are taxed at, ( including the ones in the super-tax bracket ), but it seems that this new computer system is not up to the job as it has already failed miserably.

    HERE and HERE are two articles that discuss these problems.

    Please read them and come back and discuss these reports when you can.

    Papa, I actually agree with the Scandinavian and European examples of welfare/social protection.

    Workers pay higher levels of income tax, and when they are unemployed they receive much higher and non means test social protection payments.

    That's it, and I agree with it.

    I agree that Britain's means test system that runs our welfare State is expensive, but I also believe Britain's welfare State is the meanest compared to the Social protection models of the EU and Nordic countries.
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    Re: Britain's jobless, this is what they go through

    Post by papa_umau on Sun 19 Aug 2012, 12:36 pm

    Therein lies a serious problem Ivanhoe......

    We do not live in Scandinavia !

    The British politicians and many of the British people are not prepared to pay any more direct tax for the services that they get and both of these groups know that increasing basic taxation is a vote-killer and a no-no as far as Britain is concerned.

    ( Question )
    I agree that those that can afford to pay more should pay more but how do we do that without some form of means test ?

    ( Answer )
    I have always said that these services and benefits should be based around ability to pay and that this should be set by HMC&E knowing exactly how much tax people already pay and at what level of accurate tax-liability are they at at the moment.

    ( It appears that the computer system that has been designed to report "real-time" tax liabilities for every British citizen, does not work and without this system up and running the "Universal Credits" plan will not be able to be applied in 2013 ).

    If this had been done properly we would have seen the property-rich but tax-poor older people not paying anything more than they have already paid and we would see people who do not need - or in many cases want - to get paid money that they do not need, ever getting this money.


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    Re: Britain's jobless, this is what they go through

    Post by Parliament.... on Sun 19 Aug 2012, 3:13 pm

    papa_umau wrote:Therein lies a serious problem Ivanhoe......

    We do not live in Scandinavia !

    The British politicians and many of the British people are not prepared to pay any more direct tax for the services that they get and both of these groups know that increasing basic taxation is a vote-killer and a no-no as far as Britain is concerned.

    ( Question )
    I agree that those that can afford to pay more should pay more but how do we do that without some form of means test ?

    ( Answer )
    I have always said that these services and benefits should be based around ability to pay and that this should be set by HMC&E knowing exactly how much tax people already pay and at what level of accurate tax-liability are they at at the moment.

    ( It appears that the computer system that has been designed to report "real-time" tax liabilities for every British citizen, does not work and without this system up and running the "Universal Credits" plan will not be able to be applied in 2013 ).

    If this had been done properly we would have seen the property-rich but tax-poor older people not paying anything more than they have already paid and we would see people who do not need - or in many cases want - to get paid money that they do not need, ever getting this money.

    Papa, I am fully are that we arent Scandinavia. But we need to copy their system.

    Unfortunately we wont while Governed by the right wing this past 30 odd years, which is why I hope Ed Milliband changes things as future PM of this country.

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    Re: Britain's jobless, this is what they go through

    Post by Parliament.... on Sun 19 Aug 2012, 3:44 pm

    papa_umau wrote:Thanks for that Ivanhoe !

    I think that most of us know that the benefits system is far too complicated and expensive to run as it stands and that is why this government are to introduce - in 2013 - the "Universal Benefits Scheme" ( Also known as "Universal Credits" ).

    One of the main problems that is being found with this "one-size-fits-all" policy is that while it is supposed to be based on known income levels instead of the expensive means-test, this means that many very rich people are going to get this money while a lot of people who previously qualified for it before under the means test regulations might not now qualify.

    The whole idea was based around being able to find out instantly - via a new computer system - what people are paying in income-tax and at what levels they are taxed at, ( including the ones in the super-tax bracket ), but it seems that this new computer system is not up to the job as it has already failed miserably.

    HERE and HERE are two articles that discuss these problems.

    Please read them and come back and discuss these reports when you can.

    Papa, Our benefits system is the meanest in Europe, although the nations right wing press would have us think otherwise.

    When we start as a nation worrying how we can afford 9.1 billion a year in third world aid, fighting wars in the middle east, and funding into the EU 50 million a day, then and only then will I believe the right wing press telling me that the grass is green.
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    Re: Britain's jobless, this is what they go through

    Post by papa_umau on Mon 20 Aug 2012, 11:32 am

    Yes, our benefits system is "the meanest" in Europe but if higher direct taxation is the answer to this problem then - as I already said - "neither the taxpayers or the government will finance a better welfare state via this method".

    I say again.... "We do not live in Scandinavia" and no government that will ever be elected here will dare to go down the increased direct taxation route in order to copy the Scandinavian way of doing things.

    With this recognised and accepted, then we have to find a better way to pay for a better welfare state. The best way - as I see it - is to ensure that the tax-payers....all of them...including the tax evaders and avoiders pay what they should be paying and that none of these people get welfare state help that they do not need.

    Even the Tories say they agree with this and that is why they have introduced this "real-time" tax-measuring system so that they can then ensure that the ones that don't need or in many cases don't want extra welfare payments given to them that should go to the people who DO need them, does go to where it is needed the most.

    It is a crying shame and a scandal that this hi-tech computer system - like many that have gone before - doesn't work, and as long as it is not able to work and control who gets the payments after 2013, this "Universal credits Scheme" will just be another Tory failure to mark up against them and their also-failed coalition.


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    Re: Britain's jobless, this is what they go through

    Post by Parliament.... on Mon 20 Aug 2012, 11:53 am

    papa_umau wrote:Yes, our benefits system is "the meanest" in Europe but if higher direct taxation is the answer to this problem then - as I already said - "neither the taxpayers or the government will finance a better welfare state via this method".

    I say again.... "We do not live in Scandinavia" and no government that will ever be elected here will dare to go down the increased direct taxation route in order to copy the Scandinavian way of doing things.

    With this recognised and accepted, then we have to find a better way to pay for a better welfare state. The best way - as I see it - is to ensure that the tax-payers....all of them...including the tax evaders and avoiders pay what they should be paying and that none of these people get welfare state help that they do not need.

    Even the Tories say they agree with this and that is why they have introduced this "real-time" tax-measuring system so that they can then ensure that the ones that don't need or in many cases don't want extra welfare payments given to them that should go to the people who DO need them, does go to where it is needed the most.

    It is a crying shame and a scandal that this hi-tech computer system - like many that have gone before - doesn't work, and as long as it is not able to work and control who gets the payments after 2013, this "Universal credits Scheme" will just be another Tory failure to mark up against them and their also-failed coalition.

    Papa, the only real answer to all this is for "Government" to return and Industry and manufacturing base to this country, fiddling with the benefits system is a no-go as far as im concerned.

    For over 30 years since the 80's, Britain has been a short term, low waged, insecure job market, it's time this changed, and Im hoping Milliband will change it.

    Tinkering with welfare and pensions which is what has happened these past months is something the Tory's love to do, because it suits them.



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    Re: Britain's jobless, this is what they go through

    Post by papa_umau on Mon 20 Aug 2012, 12:33 pm

    I do not think that "fixing" this market or the welfare state is "tinkering" with it !

    I do not think in this commercial and financial climate makes it at all easy for any government to bring back Britain to an "industrial and manufacturing base" when we are being undercut by just about every country in the third world including China and India.

    Clapco wants Britain to become a slave-wage country so that we can compete but that is not an option either as our cost of living and our standard of living needs to be maintained if we are not to become one of these slave-nations.

    To do BOTH is not an easy thing to do as we simply do not have the manufacturing or exporting clout that we used to have. In other words, we simply cannot compete and we are suffering because of this fact.

    The only answer to this dilemma is to ensure that more of the money that is hidden from view, by the people who still have it, is brought back into our economy so that our treasury can have, once again, enough finance to maintain this welfare state and to lift the bottom end of our society out of the poverty trap.


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    Re: Britain's jobless, this is what they go through

    Post by Parliament.... on Mon 20 Aug 2012, 12:51 pm

    papa_umau wrote:I do not think that "fixing" this market or the welfare state is "tinkering" with it !

    I do not think in this commercial and financial climate makes it at all easy for any government to bring back Britain to an "industrial and manufacturing base" when we are being undercut by just about every country in the third world including China and India.

    Clapco wants Britain to become a slave-wage country so that we can compete but that is not an option either as our cost of living and our standard of living needs to be maintained if we are not to become one of these slave-nations.

    To do BOTH is not an easy thing to do as we simply do not have the manufacturing or exporting clout that we used to have. In other words, we simply cannot compete and we are suffering because of this fact.

    The only answer to this dilemma is to ensure that more of the money that is hidden from view, by the people who still have it, is brought back into our economy so that our treasury can have, once again, enough finance to maintain this welfare state and to lift the bottom end of our society out of the poverty trap.

    Papa, I agree with your last paragrah, but, and to choose your own words to me in another post, it aint gonna happen,unquote. I believe Churchil can be quoted as saying that Britain is a great country for a rich man to live in, unquote.

    Papa, Britain is in a tidy little mess, and even I cant see Milliband sorting it.

    The only true answer to this countries ills, is to get rid of the Tory right wing, vote in Labour and hope Milliband goes back to Labour's core values, this would solve a lot at the stroke of a pen. Dont you think ?




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    Re: Britain's jobless, this is what they go through

    Post by Parliament.... on Mon 20 Aug 2012, 4:07 pm

    papa_umau wrote:I do not think that "fixing" this market or the welfare state is "tinkering" with it !

    I do not think in this commercial and financial climate makes it at all easy for any government to bring back Britain to an "industrial and manufacturing base" when we are being undercut by just about every country in the third world including China and India.

    Clapco wants Britain to become a slave-wage country so that we can compete but that is not an option either as our cost of living and our standard of living needs to be maintained if we are not to become one of these slave-nations.

    To do BOTH is not an easy thing to do as we simply do not have the manufacturing or exporting clout that we used to have. In other words, we simply cannot compete and we are suffering because of this fact.

    The only answer to this dilemma is to ensure that more of the money that is hidden from view, by the people who still have it, is brought back into our economy so that our treasury can have, once again, enough finance to maintain this welfare state and to lift the bottom end of our society out of the poverty trap.

    """""I do not think that "fixing" this market or the welfare state is "tinkering" with it !""

    As far the Tories are concerned, they would get rid of the welfare State if they could because they dont believe in it.

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    Re: Britain's jobless, this is what they go through

    Post by Guest on Wed 22 Aug 2012, 11:29 am

    Don't fool yourself that merely by voting for Labour that the problem will go away - IT WON'T

    The Scandinavian countries are resource rich countries with small populations. We are a trading bloc with a large population. We need to trade to survive and that means staying competitive on international markets. Anyone that thinks we can pay ourselves even more for not working is living in cuckoo land.

    We need lower taxes not higher ones - if I thought that voting Conservative would guarantee that then we would all vote Conservative. As it stands the system is broken and our politicians do whatever they think will get them re-elected, not what is necessary for increased prosperity.

    CC

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    Re: Britain's jobless, this is what they go through

    Post by Parliament.... on Wed 22 Aug 2012, 11:34 am

    Clapco wrote:Don't fool yourself that merely by voting for Labour that the problem will go away - IT WON'T

    The Scandinavian countries are resource rich countries with small populations. We are a trading bloc with a large population. We need to trade to survive and that means staying competitive on international markets. Anyone that thinks we can pay ourselves even more for not working is living in cuckoo land.

    We need lower taxes not higher ones - if I thought that voting Conservative would guarantee that then we would all vote Conservative. As it stands the system is broken and our politicians do whatever they think will get them re-elected, not what is necessary for increased prosperity.

    CC

    Im going to play your game for a moment here and ask you, how little do you think UK workers should be paid for us to remain competitive. ?

    Also I am very aware that voting Labour at the next G/E wont cure this countries ills.

    I myself have always looked to former and traditional Labour Government's to look after the most vulnerable in our society, im not refering to myself here, im thinking generally of other people.

    Traditional Labour's core values of fairness and social justice are what enticed me in their direction voting wise in the first place, and to quote Papa from another posting, the rich are well able to look after themselves.

    The Tory right wing believe in a small state and low income tax, so they reduce state spending, including on welfare, and they privatise services.

    As is happening now.

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    Re: Britain's jobless, this is what they go through

    Post by Guest on Wed 22 Aug 2012, 12:37 pm

    It is an impossible question to answer Ivanhoe. If the industry is successful then they will be paid more than if the industry is unsuccessful. If the industry is uncompetitive then it will close down.

    For example the window cleaning business. If there are many customers and few people prepared to do the work then window cleaners will be handsomely paid. If people decide the cost of their service is too high they will reduce their consumption from once per week to once per month say. So the cleaners will earn less. If more people offer window cleaning services then in order to get business they will have to reduce their prices so the cleaners will earn less.

    This is how the market operates. It is not political - you cannot charge more to a Conservative than a Labour voter for example. As to what effect politicians have on the window cleaners lot however you can draw conclusions. When people have higher taxes they have less to spend on window cleaning. When the supply of window cleaners goes up eg through immigration, then cleaners will earn less. Both of these negative factors arise as a result of Labour policies so Window cleaners should vote Conservative.

    As to the 'vulnerable' - it sounds nice but until the government decides to subsidise window cleaning either directly (payment to window cleaners) or indirectly (mandatory levels of cleaning) the window cleaners get nothing. Indeed I would argue that the window cleaner should provide their services at lower cost to the needy as many businesses do - low rates for OAPs for example.

    As to the original subject of your thread you should know that I care passionately about the fate of the unemployed. I have been unemployed myself and I can see what it does to people and families so you are right to bring it to everyone's attention. But asking them to vote Labour is the worst thing they could do to improve their lot as demonstrated above.

    Clapco


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    Re: Britain's jobless, this is what they go through

    Post by Parliament.... on Wed 22 Aug 2012, 12:51 pm

    Clapco wrote:It is an impossible question to answer Ivanhoe. If the industry is successful then they will be paid more than if the industry is unsuccessful. If the industry is uncompetitive then it will close down.

    For example the window cleaning business. If there are many customers and few people prepared to do the work then window cleaners will be handsomely paid. If people decide the cost of their service is too high they will reduce their consumption from once per week to once per month say. So the cleaners will earn less. If more people offer window cleaning services then in order to get business they will have to reduce their prices so the cleaners will earn less.

    This is how the market operates. It is not political - you cannot charge more to a Conservative than a Labour voter for example. As to what effect politicians have on the window cleaners lot however you can draw conclusions. When people have higher taxes they have less to spend on window cleaning. When the supply of window cleaners goes up eg through immigration, then cleaners will earn less. Both of these negative factors arise as a result of Labour policies so Window cleaners should vote Conservative.

    As to the 'vulnerable' - it sounds nice but until the government decides to subsidise window cleaning either directly (payment to window cleaners) or indirectly (mandatory levels of cleaning) the window cleaners get nothing. Indeed I would argue that the window cleaner should provide their services at lower cost to the needy as many businesses do - low rates for OAPs for example.

    As to the original subject of your thread you should know that I care passionately about the fate of the unemployed. I have been unemployed myself and I can see what it does to people and families so you are right to bring it to everyone's attention. But asking them to vote Labour is the worst thing they could do to improve their lot as demonstrated above.

    Clapco


    Clapco, you have a very very one sided view of things if I may say so.

    Germany and France lead the world re- industry and manufacturing. They are not "market lead,, yes they have unemployment, that's natural, but they also have a poverty line level that is far higher than here in Britain's omnipresent right wing debacle, and nobody is allowed to fall beneath it.

    EU wortkers pay much higher income tax than we do, and their Social Charter pays them much higher and non means tested social protection payments. I know this because I have friends in Germany and France who cannot believe how low England has sunk politically, I told them we are now victorianised, and have been on a steady slide since the 80's.

    Tell me, how long were you unemployed for ?, this is if you dont mind me asking ?

    P.S. Markets are indeed political. As as already stated to you, European countries are not market lead, they invest and subsidise, even their railways systems are nationalised via mammoth subsidies that keep fairs cheap.

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    Re: Britain's jobless, this is what they go through

    Post by Guest on Wed 22 Aug 2012, 2:08 pm

    My view is derived from 50+ years experience both in the UK and internationally including several years in numerous European countries. Whilst there are differences in levels of subsidy between countries, I can assure you that their economies are broadly market lead. Indeed the EU is founded on that principle.

    I have been unemployed twice - once briefly during the Thatcher clearout in the 80s and once during those heady years of the second Labour government of 2003 for almost 12 months.

    I agree with you that there are differences in how poverty is perceived between different countries, but you must also acknowledge that the ways of dealing with it have resulted in massive debts for many of them that will take years to overcome - the endgame is nowhere to be seen yet.

    Clapco


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    Re: Britain's jobless, this is what they go through

    Post by Parliament.... on Wed 22 Aug 2012, 2:30 pm

    Clapco wrote:My view is derived from 50+ years experience both in the UK and internationally including several years in numerous European countries. Whilst there are differences in levels of subsidy between countries, I can assure you that their economies are broadly market lead. Indeed the EU is founded on that principle.

    I have been unemployed twice - once briefly during the Thatcher clearout in the 80s and once during those heady years of the second Labour government of 2003 for almost 12 months.

    I agree with you that there are differences in how poverty is perceived between different countries, but you must also acknowledge that the ways of dealing with it have resulted in massive debts for many of them that will take years to overcome - the endgame is nowhere to be seen yet.

    Clapco


    Taking your posting a piece at a time, were you an outright home owner during your periods of unemployment ?, and how long were you unemployed ( both times ) ?
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    Re: Britain's jobless, this is what they go through

    Post by papa_umau on Wed 22 Aug 2012, 4:49 pm

    Rather than getting too deeply into these reasons I would much rather ask: What is poverty ?

    If we take into account the differing costs of living of differing countries we have to then try to calculate how much money will be required to keep the average "joe" out of poverty.

    Of course people - and even countries - will get themselves into debt if they think that can service these debts but almost all of these people and countries soon find out that with changes in incomes and forced unemployment and changes in prices and lending rates the original plans very quickly become unsustainable. This is a very tricky balance to maintain once the changes that are happening go out of control.

    Real poverty, not "chosen poverty" as I have highlighted, is usually connected to the people who have the least amount of money with which to buy the things that they need to subsist. The people who are already poor get even poorer in this scenario until they are either helped out with charities or they starve and become homeless.

    There is NO GOOD REASON for this scenario to come about in any civilised western and developed-world country as the money IS there, it is just in the hands of the few that ensure that they keep hanging on to it.


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    Re: Britain's jobless, this is what they go through

    Post by Parliament.... on Wed 22 Aug 2012, 9:00 pm

    [quote="papa_umau"]Rather than getting too deeply into these reasons I would much rather ask: What is poverty ?

    If we take into account the differing costs of living of differing countries we have to then try to calculate how much money will be required to keep the average "joe" out of poverty.

    Of course people - and even countries - will get themselves into debt if they think that can service these debts but almost all of these people and countries soon find out that with changes in incomes and forced unemployment and changes in prices and lending rates the original plans very quickly become unsustainable. This is a very tricky balance to maintain once the changes that are happening go out of control.

    Real poverty, not "chosen poverty" as I have highlighted, is usually connected to the people who have the least amount of money with which to buy the things that they need to subsist. The people who are already poor get even poorer in this scenario until they are either helped out with charities or they starve and become homeless.

    There is NO GOOD REASON for this scenario to come about in any civilised western and developed-world country as the money IS there, it is just in the hands of the few that ensure that they keep hanging on to it.[/quote

    """"There is NO GOOD REASON for this scenario to come about in any civilised western and developed-world country as the money IS there, it is just in the hands of the few that ensure that they keep hanging on to it"""

    The reason is the free market Papa.
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    Re: Britain's jobless, this is what they go through

    Post by papa_umau on Thu 23 Aug 2012, 12:32 pm

    I don't think it is as simplistic as that Ivanhoe as the whole world revolves around free-markets.

    Are you suggesting that life would be better if all of the markets were somehow engineered to be fixed and to stay fixed ?

    That is a nonsensical idea as free-trade between countries and within countries is what keeps us all working and earning and alive; without it commerce and wealth-creation and employment would be non-existent.

    I do not actually think that you are trying to suggest that the free markets across the world should be destroyed as that would obviously destroy everything else if this was done.

    I think that ,like me, you are suggesting that these free markets should have some form of protection built into them whereby they are not able to rip-off the people they depend on to survive. This is called "regulation" and while I will agree that many of these regulations have been removed of recent years I do feel that we need to get back to a better level of protection for the consumers of the world.

    While uncontrolled Capitalism run by the globalist machines is not healthy I suggest that so long as they are allowed to continue to work within a safety framework then their is little wrong with Capitalism. Even Communist China is now working on an internationalist and free Capitalist ethic, and they should be dead against this.


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    Re: Britain's jobless, this is what they go through

    Post by Parliament.... on Thu 23 Aug 2012, 1:07 pm

    Papa, It is the free markets of the USA and here in Britain that have caused the underclass, hence my one line answer to your question, "the reason is the free market".

    However you are of course right about free markets having protection, or some form of regulation built in, and this is what European country's have had for decades.

    Neither Germany or France have unbridled free markets, they do have State intervention when necessary.

    Many years ago I watched and listened to an EU minister, not a British MEP, talk about this, this minister was a woman who stated that the EU have a Social Charter to prevent what she refered to as social dumping. She also said they have State intervention in markets. Unquote.
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    papa_umau
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    Re: Britain's jobless, this is what they go through

    Post by papa_umau on Thu 23 Aug 2012, 1:19 pm

    SO, in sensible fact, we totally agree that "free-markets" that have built-in protection for the consumers is the right way to go ?

    If this is the case then "free-markets" without any qualification are not as evil as you regularly seem to paint them ?


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    Re: Britain's jobless, this is what they go through

    Post by Parliament.... on Thu 23 Aug 2012, 1:21 pm

    papa_umau wrote:SO, in sensible fact, we totally agree that "free-markets" that have built-in protection for the consumers is the right way to go ?

    If this is the case then "free-markets" without any qualification are not as evil as you regularly seem to paint them ?

    """""free-markets" without any qualification""""

    Not sure what you mean here Papa ?

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    Re: Britain's jobless, this is what they go through

    Post by Guest on Fri 24 Aug 2012, 9:22 am

    Ignoring Paps blatant sloganeering and attempts to hijack your post, I was purchasing a house on both occasions with a mortgage. An interesting question if I may say so. A mortgage certainly puts pressure on finding the next payment...

    Clapco

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    Re: Britain's jobless, this is what they go through

    Post by Parliament.... on Fri 24 Aug 2012, 12:14 pm

    Clapco wrote:Ignoring Paps blatant sloganeering and attempts to hijack your post, I was purchasing a house on both occasions with a mortgage. An interesting question if I may say so. A mortgage certainly puts pressure on finding the next payment...

    Clapco

    Clapco, there are no words that I can think of at this moment in time, that I can write to express to you my ammediate thoughts on reading your words conconcering Papa.

    Suffice to say that from now on, I will not, I repeat, not, be responding to any more of your postings whatever you may write.

    I will now leave writing in response to all further postings from you on this site, to Papa, or to other members who feel they want to.




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    Re: Britain's jobless, this is what they go through

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