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    The Toxic EU..again!!

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    Technician
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    The Toxic EU..again!!

    Post by Technician on Wed 15 Aug 2012, 2:16 pm

    Hi all,

    How much more of this vile organisation do the people of the Uk have to put up with ?.
    Readers may not have seen this comment ( a litte long, but please read ). I don't have to say much here as its all said. One of the most daming exposures yet....And you STILL want to be part of this Paps ???




    There is a popular joke in Brussels that if the European Union were a country applying to join itself, it would be rejected on the grounds of being undemocratic.

    It’s absolutely true - and, believe me, it isn’t funny. Or, if it is, then the laugh is on you and me.

    Democracy is not simply a periodic right to mark a cross on a ballot paper. It also depends upon a relationship between government and governed, on a sense of common affinity and allegiance.

    It requires what the political philosophers of Ancient Greece called a ‘demos’, a unit with which we the people can identify.

    Take away the demos and you are left only with the ‘kratos’ - a state that must compel by force of law what it cannot ask in the name of patriotism.

    In the absence of a demos, governments are even likelier than usual to purchase votes through public works schemes and sinecures.

    Lacking any natural loyalty, they have to buy the support of their electorates. And that is precisely what is happening in the EU.

    One way to think of the EU is as a massive vehicle for the redistribution of wealth - though not in a way that many of us would consider fair or beneficial.

    Taxpayers in all the states contribute money to Brussels through their national taxes.

    The bureaucrats then use this huge revenue to purchase the allegiance of consultants, contractors, big landowners, non-governmental organisations (NGOs), corporations, charities and municipalities.
    In other words, all the articulate and powerful groups they rely on to keep themselves in employment.

    Unsurprisingly, the people running the EU have little time for the concept of representative government.

    The (unelected) President of the European Commission, Jose Manuel Durao Barroso, argues that nation states are dangerous precisely because they are excessively democratic.

    ‘Decisions taken by the most democratic institutions in the world are very often wrong,’ he claims, without a hint of irony. The plain fact is that the EU is contemptuous of public opinion — not by some oversight, but as an inevitable consequence of its supra-national nature.

    The EU is run, extraordinarily, by a body that combines legislative and executive power. The European Commission is not only the EU’s ‘government’, it is also the only body that can propose legislation in most fields of policy.

    Such a concentration of power is itself objectionable enough. But what is even more terrifying is that the 27 Commissioners are unelected. Many supporters of the EU acknowledge this flaw — the ‘democratic deficit’, as they call it — and vaguely admit that something ought to be done about it.

    But the democratic deficit isn’t an accidental design flaw: it is intrinsic to the whole project.

    The EU’s founding fathers had mixed feelings about democracy — especially the populist strain that came into vogue between the two World Wars. In their minds, too much democracy was associated with demagoguery and fascism.

    They prided themselves on creating a model where supreme power would be in the hands of ‘experts’ — disinterested technocrats immune to the ballot box.

    They understood very well that their audacious scheme to merge Europe’s ancient kingdoms and republics into a single state would never succeed if each successive transfer of power from the national capitals to Brussels had to be approved by the voters.

    They were unapologetic about designing a system in which public opinion would come second to deals stuck by a bureau of wise men.The EU’s diffidence about representative government continues to this day.

    When referendums go the ‘wrong’ way, Eurocrats simply swat the results aside. Denmark voted against the Maastricht Treaty in 1992, Ireland against the Nice Treaty in 2001 and Ireland (again) against the Lisbon Treaty in 2008. Their governments were all told just to go away and try again.

    When France and the Netherlands voted against the European Constitution in 2005, the verdict was simply disregarded.

    As an MEP at the time, I well remember the aftermath of those last two votes.

    One after another, MEPs and Eurocrats rose to explain that people hadn’t really been voting against the European Constitution at all.

    They had actually been voting against Anglo-Saxon capitalism or the French leader Jacques Chirac or against Turkey joining — anything, in fact, except the proposition actually on the ballot paper.

    As in any abusive relationship, the contemptuous way in which Eurocrats treat voters has become self-reinforcing on both sides.

    The more voters are ignored, the more cynical and fatalistic they become.

    They abstain in record numbers, complaining — quite understandably — that it makes no difference how they cast their ballots.

    Eurocrats, for their part, fall quickly into the habit of treating public opinion as an obstacle to overcome rather than a reason to change direction.

    To get around the awkward lack of enthusiasm for their project, the Euro-elite of Brussels claim the people are being misled.

    If only they weren’t hoodwinked by Eurosceptic media barons and whipped up by unscrupulous nationalists, if only there could be an informed and dispassionate election campaign, then the people would surely see that deeper integration was in their interests.

    But, the argument goes on, because people are unable to make an unclouded judgment, Eurocrats are therefore entitled — indeed obliged — to disregard their superficial desires in pursuit of their true preferences. In his final interview as prime minister, Tony Blair stated: ‘The British people are sensible enough to know that, even if they have a certain prejudice about Europe, they don’t expect their government necessarily to share it or act upon it.’

    Got that? According to Blair, we don’t want our politicians to do as we say: we want them to second-guess our innermost, unarticulated desires.

    From the point of view of the politician, this is a remarkably convenient theory. Not all Eurocrats are cynics. There are some committed Euro-federalists who believe it is possible to democratise the EU without destroying it.

    Their ideal is a pan-European democracy, based on a more powerful European Parliament.

    The European Commission would become the Cabinet; the Council of Ministers would become an Upper House, representing the nation states; and the European Parliament would become the main legislative body.

    Give MEPs more power, runs the theory, and people will take them more seriously.

    A higher calibre of candidate will stand, and turnout will rise.

    Pan-European political parties will contest the elections on common and binding manifestos. European democracy will become a reality. The problem with this idea is that it has already demonstrably failed.

    Turnout for the 2009 elections to the European Parliament was a dismal 43 per cent - compared to 65 per cent in our 2010 general election, a figure that was itself considered embarrassingly low.

    In other words, less than half the population could be bothered to vote - despite voting being compulsory in some member states and Brussels spending hundreds of millions of euros on a campaign to encourage turnout.

    One of its gimmicks was to send a ballot box into orbit - the perfect symbol of the EU’s pie-in-the-sky remoteness.

    The plain fact - which Brussels chooses to ignore - is that over the past 30 years, the European Parliament, like the EU in general, has been steadily agglomerating powers.

    Yet people have responded by refusing to sanction it with their votes.

    Turnout at European elections is far lower than at national elections for the obvious reason that very few people think of themselves as Europeans in the same sense that they see themselves as British or Portuguese or Swedish.

    There is no pan-European public opinion, there is no pan-European media. You can’t decree a successful democracy by bureaucratic fiat. You can’t fabricate a common nationality. But MEPs respond to this by blaming the electorate.

    They demand better information campaigns, more extensive (and expensive) propaganda. Europe matters more than ever, and, they argue, voters must be made to see it!

    It never occurs to them to infer any loss of legitimacy from the turnout figures, nor to devolve powers to a level of government — the nation state — that continues to enjoy proper democratic support.

    On the contrary, those nation states find themselves in danger of being subverted by the Brussels machine and its sympathisers.

    Ireland used to have exemplary laws on the conduct of referendums, providing for equal airtime for both sides and the distribution of a leaflet with the ‘Yes’ and ‘No’ arguments to every household.

    When these rules produced a ‘No’ to the Nice treaty in 2001, they were revised so as to make it easier for the pro-EU forces to win a second referendum.

    Henceforth, the free publicity would be divided up in proportion to each party’s representation in parliament. And since all Irish parties — except Sinn Fein — were pro-Treaty, impartial information was replaced by State-sponsored propaganda.

    Worse, the result was that all subsequent Irish referendums, not just those to do with the EU, are fought on an unbalanced basis.

    There are many other examples of Brussels’ influence undermining the democratic processes of its member countries in order to sustain the requirements of European integration. Croatia dropped the minimum threshold provisions in its referendum rules in order to ensure a result in favour of joining the EU in 2011. When the president of the Czech Republic declared his reluctance to sign the Lisbon Treaty into law, senior Brussels Eurocrats called on their Socialist allies in the Republic to threaten the President with impeachment, even though he was trying to stick to a promise he had made to his people in the run-up to his election.

    Meanwhile, in Britain, successive party leaders have had to abandon their pledges of a referendum on one aspect or another of the EU. Each such betrayal damages their credibility with the electorate, yet it seems they are prepared to pay that price for the sake of Europe.

    However, British party leaders have got off lightly compared to others.

    In Ireland, the ruling Fianna Fail party found its support slump from 41.6 to 17.4 per cent in last year’s general election, as voters turned against a government that had meekly agreed to the EU’s loans-for-austerity deal, turning Ireland into a vassal state.
    Meanwhile, Greece and Italy suffered what amounted to Brussels-backed coups as elected prime ministers were toppled and replaced with Eurocrats.

    In Athens, George Papandreou’s mistake was to call for a referendum on Greece’s austerity deal - a move which was to prompt fury in Brussels where, as we have seen, the first rule is ‘no referendums - unless we can fix the result’.

    Papandreou was not a Eurosceptic. On the contrary, he fervently wanted Greece to stay in the euro. His ‘sin’ was to be too keen on democracy, and so he was out

    Silvio Berlusconi, too, got on the wrong side of the EU. His pronouncement that ‘since the introduction of the euro, most Italians have become poorer’ was factually true, but sealed his fate.

    The European Central Bank’s sudden withdrawal of support for Italian bonds, verbal attacks from other EU leaders and a rebellion by Europhile Italian MPs combined to see him off.

    Both Papandreou and Berlusconi were already unpopular for domestic reasons — just as Margaret Thatcher was when EU leaders and Conservative Euro-enthusiasts brought her down in 1990.

    Had any of these leaders been at the height of their powers, they would not have been vulnerable.

    Nonetheless, to depose an incumbent head of government, even a wounded one, is no small thing. It shows the hideous strength of the EU.

    With Papandreou and Berlusconi out of the way, Brussels was able to install technocratic juntas in their place — unelected administrations called into being solely to enforce programmes which their nations rejected. The Brussels system was undemocratic from the start, but its hostility to the ballot box had always been disguised by the outward trappings of constitutional rule in its member nations. That has now ceased to be true.

    Apparatchiks in Brussels now rule directly through apparatchiks in Athens and Rome. The voters and their tribunes are cut out altogether. There is no longer any pretence. In place of democracy, we now have the tyranny of a self-perpetuating, self-serving elite, all wedded by self-interest to the European project.

    They are, it must be said, a worried and tetchy bunch. Ever since 55 per cent of French voters and 62 per cent of Dutch voters rejected the European Constitution in 2005, the Eurocrats in Brussels have been noticeably defensive. They have given up trying to win round public opinion. Their primary interest is keeping their well-paid positions. Before those ‘No’ votes, they could convince themselves that Euroscepticism was essentially a British phenomenon, with perhaps a tiny off-shoot in Scandinavia.

    Now, they know that almost any electorate will reject the transfer of powers to Brussels. So they concentrate on wielding power in the way they know best — through influence and money.

    It is a shock to discover just how extensive the EU’s reach is. Take its claim in 2003 to be ‘consulting the people’ about the draft of a new constitution by inviting 200 ‘representative organisations’ to submit their suggestions.

    Every single one of them, I discovered, received grants from the EU. If you scratch the surface, you find that virtually every field of activity has some EU-sponsored pressure group to campaign for deeper integration, whether it be the European Union of Journalists, the European Women’s Lobby or the European Cyclists’ Federation.

    These are not independent associations which just happen to be in receipt of EU funds. They are, in most cases, creatures of the European Commission, wholly dependent on Brussels for their existence. The EU has also been active in spreading its tentacles to established charities and lobbying groups within the nation states. The process starts harmlessly enough, with one-off grants for specific projects.

    After a while, the organisation realises that it is worth investing in a ‘Europe officer’ whose job, in effect, is to secure bigger grants.

    As the subventions become permanent, more ‘Europe officers’ are hired. Soon, the handouts are taken for granted and factored into the organisation’s budget. Once this stage is reached, the EU is in a position to call in favours.

    When he introduced the Bill to ratify the Lisbon Treaty in 2007, the then Foreign Secretary, David Miliband, made a great song and dance that it was backed by a whole range of independent organisations including the NSPCC, One World Action, Action Aid and Oxfam.

    Yet every organisation he cited was in receipt of EU subventions. In a single year, Action Aid, the NSPCC, One World Action and Oxfam had among them received €43,051,542 (£33,855,355).

    Can organisations in receipt of such colossal subsidies legitimately claim to be independent? Hardly surprising that they should dutifully endorse a treaty supported by their paymasters.

    In much the same way, the Commission pays Friends of the Earth to urge it to take more powers in the field of climate change.

    It pays the WWF to tell it to assume more control over environmental matters. It pays the European Trade Union Congress to demand more Brussels employment laws.

    The EU hoses cash at these dependent organisations, who then tell it what it wants to hear. It then turns around and claims to have listened to ‘The People’.

    And here’s the clever bit: millions of workers linked to these groups are thereby drawn into the system, their livelihoods becoming dependent on the European project.

    Meanwhile, big businesses see a way of manipulating the EU system for their own purposes, grasping that they can achieve far more in the Brussels institutions than they could from administrations whose legislatures are dependent on public opinion.

    Between 2007 and 2010, the EU banned several vitamin supplements and herbal remedies and subjected others to a prohibitively expensive licensing regime.

    The reaction from consumers to this attack on alternative medicines was overwhelming as millions of Europeans found that an innocent activity they had pursued for years was being criminalised. I can’t remember receiving so many letters and emails on any question in all my time in politics.

    It turned out these new restrictions were pushed strenuously by big pharmaceutical corporations.

    They could easily afford the compliance costs; their smaller rivals could not. Many independent herbalists went out of business, and the big companies gained a near monopoly.

    The lesson here is that whenever Brussels proposes some apparently unnecessary rules, ask yourself, who stands to benefit?

    Nine times out of ten, you will find there is a company or a conglomeration whose products happen to meet all the proposed specifications anyway, and is using the EU to its own advantage.

    Thus are businesses, as well as charities, drawn into the Euro-nexus.

    Thus are powerful and wealthy interest groups in every member state given a direct stake in the system.

    These days, the EU’s strength is not to be found among the diminished ranks of true believers or the benign cranks who distribute leaflets for the Union of European Federalists.

    Nor, in truth, does it reside primarily among the officials directly on the Brussels payroll.

    The real power of the EU is to be found in the wider corpus of interested parties - the businesses invested in the regulatory process; the consultants and contractors dependent on Brussels spending; the landowners receiving cheques from the Common Agricultural Policy; the local councils with their EU departments; the seconded civil servants with remuneration terms beyond anything they could hope for in their home countries; the armies of lobbyists and professional associations; the charities and the NGOs.

    Here is the swollen European behemoth, its interests utterly tied into the European project. And I fear it’s not going to stand aside for a cause so trivial as public opinion or democracy.



    Extracted from A Doomed Marriage by Daniel Hannan, published by Notting Hill Books at £12. © 2012 Daniel Hannan. To order a copy (p&p incl) call 0843 382 0000.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2188453/The-case-Europe-MEP-Daniel-Hannan-reveals-disturbing-contempt-democracy-heart-EU.html#ixzz23cURPXpC

    [/b]



    Says it all really, and this guy is an MEP !!!!

    Technician


















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    papa_umau
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    Re: The Toxic EU..again!!

    Post by papa_umau on Thu 16 Aug 2012, 11:42 am

    Yes Technician, a "bit long"....of that there is no doubt.... but I have always thought that if the desire is there this entity CAN be fixed and the European Union can be made to work for all of it's true member-states.

    Britain has never actually been a full member as the politicos that went in at it's inception wanted to have all of the good but none of the bad and as such accepted the so-called "Common Market" without any of the responsibilities that go with it.

    Simply being signatories to the Treaty of Rome and being awarded a veto because of our size is NOT being a fully-committed member of this entity and until we are fully committed to making Europe work we can have no real say in what happens to this union in the months and years to come.

    I know one thing that is true: Whatever happens to Europe and the Eurozone in the months and years to come WILL effect us whether we like it or not and with this thought to the fore I would like to suggest that it is time that we stopped playing at being members of this union and started to get right in at the heart of it in order to be able to help to fix it's many flaws.

    In other words....GET IN or GET OUT. It's "make your mind up time".


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    Re: The Toxic EU..again!!

    Post by Guest on Thu 16 Aug 2012, 10:13 pm

    There is an assumption that democracy is the optimum way forward for society but that isn't always the case - take Singapore for example - and it sounds to me like whoever you cut and pasted this article from was just another UK Idiots Party spokesman venting its spleen.

    That said as an ardent capitalist I am against any form of bureaucracy and it seems that the EU does generate a lot, however our own government is more than a match for it in terms of volume, so the EU itself is not at fault per se.

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    Re: The Toxic EU..again!!

    Post by Angie baby on Sat 18 Aug 2012, 12:49 pm

    A bit nasty, as usual, Clapco, but even if few of us support the UKIP party we still have to think about our democracy and how it serves us.

    There is a place for bureaucracy in government and the essential services but so long as it is not too drawn out and disabling it has an important job to do.

    I also agree that democracy is the only really safe way to run any country and if one asks anybody who comes from a non-democratic country that person will quickly find out what that is like to live under any other kind of _ _ _ _ _ racy.

    As our Papa says, "the European Union has lots of flaws" and while I agree with that statement I also think that we should help them to sort out those flaws rather than dismissing this necessary entity out of hand.
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    The EU

    Post by Technician on Sat 18 Aug 2012, 2:01 pm

    Hi all,

    Well hi Clapo, very flawed logic is that I am afraid; particularly as the truth of the matter should be hitting you in the face!!

    The article is in fact 'pasted' and written by an MEP for Gods sake. Its one of a series which goes into great depth about the EU.

    I make no excuses for that, unlike the current EU mandarins who will try and make excuses for the further £20 million debt Greece has incurred in the last few months since its 'last' bailout. A country in fact which is being bled dry by them.

    I suggest if you want an example of 'recovery', and a country which has put two fingers up to the IMF you should study Iceland, but of course; funny is it not the the BBC never mentions them these days. ( Oh, and of course Switzerland, at the 'heart of Europe' is doing very well thank you without being a member of the 'toxic bunch' )

    To carry on with the same repetative activities and policies when in the past they have clearly failed is the real idiotic policy. The EU is slowly imploding...get real !

    Technician

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    Re: The Toxic EU..again!!

    Post by jim on Wed 14 Nov 2012, 4:19 pm


    Another day in the EU utopian society!
    How any sane person can support this chaotic organisation beggars belief ?

    Workers across the European Union are staging a series of protests and strikes against rising unemployment and austerity measures.

    General strikes in Spain and Portugal have halted transport, businesses and schools, and led to clashes between police and protesters in Madrid.

    Smaller strikes were reported in Greece, Italy and Belgium, and rallies were planned in other countries.

    Airlines are recommending passengers check the schedules before setting out to airports.

    The European Trade Union Confederation has co-ordinated the Europe-wide action.

    Some 40 groups from 23 countries are involved in Wednesday's demonstrations.

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    Re: The Toxic EU..again!!

    Post by Guest on Wed 14 Nov 2012, 4:49 pm

    Sorry jim, but what has that got to do with the EU?

    The countries you mentioned all lived beyond their means for years and their respective governments have to sort it out. They would be turning to someone cap in hand for a bailout whether Brussels was there or not. It is perfectly normal for austerity to follow a binge as the supermarkets know all too well in the month after Christmas.

    It seems the EU are actually doing us (UK PLC) a favour in standing up to the various governments as the alternative would be a default which would in turn affect our banks and thus the UK taxpayer.

    Clapco

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    Re: The Toxic EU..again!!

    Post by jim on Wed 14 Nov 2012, 6:41 pm

    Some years ago a small rural town in Spain twinned with a similar town in Greece.
    The mayor of the Greek town visited the Spanish town. When he saw the palatial mansion belonging to the Spanish mayor, he wondered aloud how on earth he could afford such a house.

    The Spaniard replied: ‘You see that bridge over there? The EU gave us a grant to construct a two-lane bridge, but by building a single lane bridge with traffic lights at either end, I could build this place.’

    The following year the Spaniard visited the Greek town. He was simply amazed at the Greek mayor's house: gold taps, marble floors, diamond doorknobs, it was marvellous.

    When he asked how he’d raised the money to build this incredible house, the Greek mayor said: ‘You see that bridge over there?’

    The Spaniard replied: ‘No.’
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    Re: The Toxic EU..again!!

    Post by papa_umau on Thu 15 Nov 2012, 12:42 pm

    Clapco..... you said:

    The countries you mentioned all lived beyond their means for years and their respective governments have to sort it out.

    And yet you seem not to be able to see that it is the millions of people right across Europe that are now taking to the streets in protest about severe austerity measures being applied over and over again to try to sort these problems, when it was NOT these suffering people that caused the situation in the first place.

    The governments and the banks and the uncontrolled extreme Capitalists that brought down these proud countries are sitting quietly in their ivory towers waiting for the dust to clear when they will step in and continue to govern and be just as wasteful as before if they do not learn from their mistakes and if they are not stopped from doing it all over again.

    It is not the people of these countries that are to blame for the state of Europe, but it is these people on the ground that are being forced to pay for the repeated misdeeds of the government and banking mandarins that seem to know no better.

    I have always thought that even as a Europhile I do not blame any of the peoples of Europe for the mistakes that have obviously been made, but I DO feel that these glaring mistakes should and could be fixed if the will was there.


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    Re: The Toxic EU..again!!

    Post by Guest on Thu 15 Nov 2012, 1:02 pm

    Maybe not, but what do you suggest? Punish the bankers? The property developers? They have already been bankrupted and besides their skills will be needed for the next upturn. The politicians have been punished - Zapatero is already on the dole in Spain, Bruin is here....

    As David Cameron said "We are all in this together" - we all have to give up a little, pay more taxes - even people with gold plated pensions. I take it you won't be marching with your loony left mates?

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    Re: The Toxic EU..again!!

    Post by papa_umau on Thu 15 Nov 2012, 1:26 pm

    Oh I wish you had not quoted that "we are all in this together" blurb from Cameron as almost all of the people of Britain know fine well that WE ARE NOT "all in this together"

    If there was truly a classless society in Britain then he might be right, but as there is not we have to admit that some people are stuck in this state more than others are and that the privileged and elitist super-rich are protected from much of the fallout that the rest of us are suffering under.

    One thing is certainly true and that is that the rich are continuing to get richer and the poor are continuing to get poorer under this selfish mob that are governing us at the moment.

    The all-suffering EU is in an almost perfect copy of the exact-same circumstances !

    You asked "what do I suggest" ? and I can easily say that the people that caused all of this should be the people that are forced to pay to correct it. SIMPLE REALLY !


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    Re: The Toxic EU..again!!

    Post by jim on Thu 15 Nov 2012, 2:26 pm

    At the height of Spain's construction boom it was not uncommon for a briefcase of 500-euro bills to be offered as part payment for property by buyers striving to save on taxes.

    That culture of ducking the taxman is deeply-engrained in Spain and is becoming a headache for Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy, threatening to force him to go back to the drawing board on budget plans which are crucial to the future of the euro.

    The government made a 3-point hike of valued-added tax the main thrust of the 65-billion-euro package of spending cuts and tax increases put on the table in July. The VAT rise alone was designed to raise 22 billion and put Spain on track to meet its EU-agreed deficit targets until 2014.

    But in a country where undocumented cash transactions with restaurants, garages and builders are the norm and more than 18 billion euros a year is believed to be lost due to VAT fraud, it looks far too optimistic.

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    Re: The Toxic EU..again!!

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