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    papa_umau
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    Re: More employment

    Post by papa_umau on Sun 17 Jun 2012, 1:57 pm

    "Wealth creation"...is an ethic that seems to be rather difficult to get to grips with as one has always to ask....."Who's wealth" ?

    Yes, if we have a successful manufacturing and trading sector we will find that jobs will be created and wages will be paid and I suppose that some might say that that is a form of "wealth".

    Karl Marx was of the opinion that "wealth" is no good if it is not shared around as many people as possible and as things are in these days of the fat-cats getting richer and fatter and the workers getting poorer and thinner, ( metaphorically speaking of course ), this "wealth distribution" is just not working.

    Nobody of any political stance ever tries to deny that the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer and that this gap is getting wider as we speak and yet NOBODY seems able to rectify the situation as the ones that have control of the money will never let anybody take it away from them so that this particular iniquity might be addressed.



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    Re: More employment

    Post by Guest on Mon 18 Jun 2012, 7:17 am

    The kind of wealth you are talking about is in a handful of people and is just the politics of envy as far as people like you go.

    In the real world where most of us live, wealth is distributed quite well. Our pensioners get paid from the profits of the big corporates, taxes redistribute it to those less fortunate, most of us get employment from commerce, etc etc.

    What is still lacking is wealth creation - entrepreneurs who build successful companies trading products the world over.

    Yes you can bleat on about distribution, but it is still not the answer. Leaving aside who should pay the most tax (and personally I favour the 'flat rate' tax approach) we are still too comfortable and paying ourselves too much for second rate performance.

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    papa_umau
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    Re: More employment

    Post by papa_umau on Mon 18 Jun 2012, 11:43 am

    From one who seems happy to accept how things are done in this respect I am not surprised at your stance.

    The thing is that if you ask the people at the bottom of this pile if they are getting their fair -share of the wealth that is being created by both clever entrepreneurs and the people who actually make that wealth by WORKING at it for a wage, then I think you will get a different stance.

    The thing is that if you are not willing to make the effort to look for that level of "wealth" - or the lack of it - then you are just missing the main story.

    "Wealth-creation" is only fair and practical when it is everybody that makes it that shares in it. This is NOT the case as far as most people in Britain are concerned.

    There is no happier workforce than one which finds a share of the profits in their pay-check and that is why the Co-operative movement is so successful.


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    Re: More employment

    Post by Guest on Mon 18 Jun 2012, 12:33 pm

    Er...you are the one that misses the point my friend. If there is no wealth, there is nothing to share. No job, no food, no house. So we DO need people to create wealth if the rest of you are to stand any chance of earning anything. You can whinge all you like about fat cats, it doesn't get away from the fact that we need someone to generate the money in the first place. And if that person doesn't get what he / she wants then why bother?

    Clapco

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    Re: More employment

    Post by Parliament.... on Mon 18 Jun 2012, 1:14 pm

    Clapco wrote:Er...you are the one that misses the point my friend. If there is no wealth, there is nothing to share. No job, no food, no house. So we DO need people to create wealth if the rest of you are to stand any chance of earning anything. You can whinge all you like about fat cats, it doesn't get away from the fact that we need someone to generate the money in the first place. And if that person doesn't get what he / she wants then why bother?

    Clapco

    Er, Clapco, I apologise to Pap here for interjecting in to what is without a shadow of a doubt, the most ludicrous posting.

    The real point here Clapco, is that the free market Britain has had since the 80's and that America have had since vitually forever, is a political Agenda for legally ripping off the poor to make the rich richer.

    The British continue paying taxes for services rendered, a huge amount of this earned wealth is spent overseas on one thing or another.

    If that money, or at least some of it, was harnessed back to us in kind we could fund on a regular bases, better pensions for the elderly for example, we could build council housing for people who could not afford to buy, we could pay a decent minimum wage, and re- nationalise the railways and the NHS for example.

    Since 1992 and John Major privatising our Railways, Britain's right wing Government's including New Labour, have spent per year 400 billion of tax payers hard earned money upholding this privatisation, when Nationalisation prior to John Major cost 100 billion per year.

    This isnt taking into account overseas aid per year 9.1 billion. Or funding into the EU, 50 plus million a day.

    And in micro economic terms we spend on the beaurocrtic means test system for pensioners, 20 times more of tax payers money mean testing pensioners, than it would cost to deliver to our elderly people a dignified income which they could live on without the prying and degrading means test system to endure.

    What Im saying Clapco, that even an intelligent person like yourself should be able to grasp that wealth creation is not necessary when regularly trillions of pounds of British tax payers money is pumping through our economy annually, and much of it going abroad, and being used on stupid things like means testing people.

    From the outset Clapco your argument is flawed, but typically right wing.

    You see the right wing dont believe anything can be delivered without someone making a profit.

    The right wing see and recognise only the nasty greedy side of human nature.

    Wealth creating Clapco feeds the rich, and leaves the ordinary joe behind, and it's meant to, because the free market looks after the rich and always at the expense of the poor.

    Britain without wealth creaters is a very rich country, we can even fight foreign wars at great expense.

    Britain is not short of a few bob and that's a fact, wealth creation is a huge myth.

    Wealth distribution is what we need to achieve, but we wont achieve this whilst we continue spending billions on tax cuts for the rich, with means tested handouts for the ill, disabled, old, and all vulnerable people.

    Pap, I once again apologise for interjecting in your deliberations with this poster.




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    Re: More employment

    Post by Guest on Mon 18 Jun 2012, 1:36 pm

    So where do there trillions come from in the first place Ivanhoe?

    I have never disagreed with anyone that some form of redistribution is necessary to help the needy - I pay my taxes and that is that. But the money needs to come from somewhere. I run a company that employs people. Their wage money keeps them in food, warmth and with a roof over their heads. If I stop then they are all without work. If I work harder, I employ more people and the economy benefits. If every employer in the land gave up what would happen then? They are entitled to what they want as far as i am concerned. If someone wants to drive a rolls royce but pays me a good wage, i don't care how much he earns. The sooner the loony lefties realise this the sooner they might be in with a chance of winning the next election.

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    Re: More employment

    Post by Parliament.... on Mon 18 Jun 2012, 2:42 pm

    Clapco wrote:So where do there trillions come from in the first place Ivanhoe?

    I have never disagreed with anyone that some form of redistribution is necessary to help the needy - I pay my taxes and that is that. But the money needs to come from somewhere. I run a company that employs people. Their wage money keeps them in food, warmth and with a roof over their heads. If I stop then they are all without work. If I work harder, I employ more people and the economy benefits. If every employer in the land gave up what would happen then? They are entitled to what they want as far as i am concerned. If someone wants to drive a rolls royce but pays me a good wage, i don't care how much he earns. The sooner the loony lefties realise this the sooner they might be in with a chance of winning the next election.

    CC

    It truly gets worse with you Clapco. I returned briefly due to your insult to the intelligent's postings because your last response I just could not let go.

    I will now stop here Clapco, do keep writing, i'm sure Pap will respond when he get's 5 mins. I wont be responding to you again.


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    Re: More employment

    Post by Guest on Tue 19 Jun 2012, 7:58 am

    You should carry on Ivanhoe - you make some good points that need to be examined. This is a forum for discussion. There is no room for animosity.

    In the words of Voltaire "I do not agree with what you are saying but I will defend your right to say it"

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    papa_umau
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    Re: More employment

    Post by papa_umau on Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:47 am

    I don't think Ivanhoe is against your debating skills, I think he is against how you often use them.

    I have the ability to see past when you start calling names, ( "Loony left" and suchlike ), and make personal attacks but our Ivanhoe is not as willing as I am to ignore such failings.

    I must admit that I am not best pleased when your style drives away my most regular contributors and if you do not tone down the rhetoric I may have to take action to stop you from doing this myself.

    The fact that you often contribute to the needs of the forum-set very well may not always protect you from censure in the future.


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    Re: More employment

    Post by Parliament.... on Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:07 am

    papa_umau wrote:I don't think Ivanhoe is against your debating skills, I think he is against how you often use them.

    I have the ability to see past when you start calling names, ( "Loony left" and suchlike ), and make personal attacks but our Ivanhoe is not as willing as I am to ignore such failings.

    I must admit that I am not best pleased when your style drives away my most regular contributors and if you do not tone down the rhetoric I may have to take action to stop you from doing this myself.

    The fact that you often contribute to the needs of the forum-set very well may not always protect you from censure in the future.

    Pap, If I may speak for myself please, nothing against you here. I dont know or care what Clapco's political views are, but he comes across as a right wing Tory.

    Clapco's debaiting skills dont mean a fig to me, but his language does, as you say "loonie left" ect, doesnt exactly give me the idea that he is an intelligent person, because name calling is the lowest rung of the mental ladder so to speak.

    I cant be bothered to see past the name calling, life's too short for that rubbish, but you Pap, this is your site, and as such it's up to you whom you wish to challenge.

    I have noted the lack of other people on here for a while, like Angie-baby, Technician, and H/G, I wonder why they havent commented ?, looking on the positive side, perhaps they are away ?
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    Re: More employment

    Post by Hell's Granny on Tue 19 Jun 2012, 12:05 pm

    Sorry, but when a topic deganerates to this extent, I can't be bothered to add to it. Any comment I make on this woule be superfluous, and possibly add fuel to a thread better buried.

    Cheers HG
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    Re: More employment

    Post by papa_umau on Fri 22 Jun 2012, 11:53 am

    Please know HG that your well-thought-out opinions are always accepted and valued here as when such a contentious subject as "employment" hits a forum such as this one we are bound to get a very varied set of opinions.

    This thread has now run over five pages and when any thread does that we must agree that there is a lot that people - including your good self - that need to have their opinions and their needs written to and read by as many people as possible.

    Debate is never easy and so long as the rhetoric and invective are held to a minimum standard I feel that it is only right that this debate should be allowed to be "heated" if it needs to be so that everybody gets a say.

    Free speech, my dear, is an ethic that is sometimes hard to keep supporting but I feel that it is important enough to be allowed to have it's head on ROB.

    If you or anybody else feels that they have been attacked personally or even spoken to in any nasty way then they should just send me a PM about it and I will - with my moderators hat on - deal with any such complaint instantly.


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