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    More employment

    Post by Guest on Thu 24 May 2012, 9:08 am

    I have posted before on the folly of employment legislation designed to secure employment having the opposite effect.

    With 2m unemployed (the same number as at the beginning and end of the last period of Labour government btw) we urgently need to get these people back to productive work if the country is to stand any chance of a return to levels of prosperity last seen before the banking crisis.

    It seems the majority of employers echo my beliefs

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jobs/9286145/Beecroft-report-Well-hire-more-people-if-we-get-no-fault-sackings-say-employers.html

    Whereas the coalition government is reluctant to adopt the recommendations of the report presumably to keep its left of centre supporters happy.

    We have a pensioners forum - how about an unemployed forum???

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    Re: More employment

    Post by papa_umau on Thu 24 May 2012, 12:14 pm

    Of course you do not expect me to support the fact that employers want it easy to sack people.

    Working people need a certain amount of tenure in their jobs so that they can plan their lives and they are stable enough to be able to take on mortgages and to look into the future.

    If the Tories and their cruel employer pals are given more power to sack their workers without good reason we are going to find that the "them and us" gulf will widen as a result.


    Last edited by papa_umau on Sat 26 May 2012, 11:25 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: More employment

    Post by Guest on Thu 24 May 2012, 2:56 pm

    As usual you lack of vision lets you down.

    This is a classic case of the law of unintended consequences - laws are passed to 'protect' those least able to protect themselves but instead they are no longer given the opportunity to earn their way out of poverty.

    Well done Paps - 2 Million unemployed and rising

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    Re: More employment

    Post by papa_umau on Fri 25 May 2012, 12:07 pm

    That is a very dangerous connection to make as the last time that the unemployment statistics reached that level - and higher - ( three million it was that time ), was under a Thatcher government.

    Another example of selective myopia on your part I think !

    Also, if you think about it, THIS TIME it is under an abortive Tory government AGAIN that the employment statistics are getting out of control.

    Enabling employers to easily sack their workers for no good reason can only go to make these figures worse, not better.

    For someone who obviously knows little about what makes for a happy workforce, I have to point out that.... a). Job satisfaction, b). Safe tenure of employment, c). A decent pay, d). Decent workplace conditions, e). Maybe a decent occupational pension, and f ). A humane employer, are the points that make for a happy workforce. Making their lives less secure by making them easy to sack does not go any way towards ensuring that that workforce are going to be willing to work hard and make money for their bosses.

    Attitudes that you bring here are the exact same attitudes that were abroad at the times of the Victorian "dark-satanic mills" when the industrial revolution was responsible for millions of people - including young children - dying in harness while their cruel employers made lots of money from their slave-like employees.

    DO you REALLY want to be an employer like that ?

    Quote.....
    Poet.... William Blake: ( and from the words of the anthem: Jerusalem ).

    In the most common interpretation of the poem, Blake implies that a visit of Jesus would briefly create heaven in England, in contrast to the "dark Satanic Mills" of the Industrial Revolution. Analysts note that Blake asks four questions rather than asserting the historical truth of Christ's visit; According to this view, the poem says that there may, or may not, have been a divine visit, when there was briefly a heaven in England.


    Last edited by papa_umau on Sat 26 May 2012, 11:26 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: More employment

    Post by Guest on Fri 25 May 2012, 3:54 pm

    Jeez Paps you couldn't make it up - well you could.

    (i) This is a coalition government
    (ii) The last set on unemployment figures showed an improvement
    (iii) The figures have been rising since it first went over a million under Heath - who introduced the Industrial Relations Act that started the problem in 1971

    As to my knowledge of what makes a happy workforce, you already know that I have one and you have never had one so your views are pure speculation.

    Finally when I last looked at my calender it was 2012 - Queen Victoria died in 1901. You should spend your time in the present not looking back into the past my friend.

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    Re: More employment

    Post by papa_umau on Sat 26 May 2012, 11:42 am

    Clapco wrote:Jeez Paps you couldn't make it up - well you could.

    (i) This is a coalition government

    And both halves of this government are incompetent !

    (ii) The last set on unemployment figures showed an improvement

    No it did not; all it showed was that there were more jobs in part-time employment than in general full term employment !

    (iii) The figures have been rising since it first went over a million under Heath - who introduced the Industrial Relations Act that started the problem in 1971

    It does not matter how bad you try to make the unemployment record of Labour look, this record for the Tories of the present and the past is always much worse !

    As to my knowledge of what makes a happy workforce, you already know that I have one and you have never had one so your views are pure speculation.

    One does not need to be drowning to know that if one jumps into deep water when one cannot swim one IS liable to drown. Basic common sense really !

    Finally when I last looked at my calender it was 2012 - Queen Victoria died in 1901. You should spend your time in the present not looking back into the past my friend.

    As I regularly say - my friend - "Those that do not remember the past are destined to repeat it !"

    Clapco

    NOW... just to refresh your mind about how the Tories think here is a quote from today's newspaper that might interest you:

    Cabinet Minister Ed Davey sparked fury yesterday by describing record unemployment as "good news !"

    Time to wake up and smell the coffee I think !


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    Re: More employment

    Post by Guest on Sat 26 May 2012, 3:30 pm

    None so blind as those that cannot see.

    (i) The coalition are following Labours spending plans as far as I can see so whilst this may be incompetent they are still a coalition not a Conservative government as you stated.
    (ii)http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/lms/labour-market-statistics/may-2012/index.html down is still down!
    (iii) Nothing to do with political affiliations - it has risen over 1 million as a result of employment legislation. If repealed we should soon get back to below 1 million.

    As to your dismissal of experience and training over pot luck, when I have toothache, I go to the dentist for help, not some dodgy geriatric from a consumer affairs website with his own political agenda!

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    Re: More employment

    Post by papa_umau on Sun 27 May 2012, 12:29 pm

    Stop using my cliches will you.

    I sometimes wonder why you come here at all as apart from your trolling ambitions I do not see anything here that will get through to you.

    Even if I am a "dodgy geriatric from a consumer affairs website with his own political agenda!" I at least try to keep an open mind when I discuss important matters.

    Your mind is closed, nailed shut and covered over in concrete and I cannot imagine why I should even talk to you at all.

    I might not, for much longer !



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    Re: More employment

    Post by Guest on Sun 27 May 2012, 1:16 pm

    My mind is open to facts and reasoning, not dogma and opinions.

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    Re: More employment

    Post by Hell's Granny on Thu 31 May 2012, 3:36 pm

    What bugs me is that the unemployment figures bear no relation to the real problem, especially as most of the jobs on offer are part-time, Minimum Waged and impossible to live on!

    Britain has no worthwhile industry left, all the privatisation has ensured that foreign companies have bought out our Industries and closed them down, resulting in Britain becoming a Third World Nation in all but name,
    With all colurs of Government sitting in the Palace of Westminster, in the cloud-cuckoo land of fading Imperial glory.

    GRRRRRRRRR!

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    Re: More employment

    Post by Guest on Fri 01 Jun 2012, 7:35 am

    That's because we as a country pay ourselves too much for too little work. The only way to finance an excessive lifestyle is by selling off the family jewels. And in Gordon Bruin's case maxing out the countries credit cards!

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    Re: More employment

    Post by papa_umau on Fri 01 Jun 2012, 12:53 pm

    Stop it Clapco.... as the Tories have sold off more "family jewels" to the private sector than any other government in Britain has done. Mind you, I will admit that Blair's New-Labour did do a fair bit of that too.

    Your sloganising of: "We pay ourselves too much for too little work" is simply downright foolish as our economy is based on - as our esteemed member, Hell's Granny says - "the workers in Britain being now forced to do part-time work or work for at-or-below the minimum wage".

    Every country's economy is driven by it's cost of living and if a cost of living is high then there is always pressure to lift wages up to meet that cost of living. If wages are held down and in some cases even made lower, then the economy suffers as the people have less money in their pockets to spend. That is the very simplest form of economic awareness !

    The minimum wage was originally introduced and set by the New-Labour government so that greedy employers could no longer pay their workers slave-wages. It is STILL set and enforced-at too low a level to make working better than hiding while on benefits.

    The slave-wage countries of China and India and a few others can easily beat us for manufacturing costs and that is why they are growing so fast while we bump along at the bottom. Turning our modern countries into slave-wage countries - as Clapco seems to be suggesting - is just not possible unless our cost of living is reduced pro-rata.

    Even the dumbest of Tories should be able to understand this.


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    Re: More employment

    Post by Guest on Sat 02 Jun 2012, 1:31 pm

    Ah yes the boy who got an 'F' in economics.

    Our standard of living derives from how much we earn less how much it costs us to live - the more we work the better off we are. You cannot control it by passing laws - the unemployment you see is a result of people pricing themselves out of work. The economy would pick up if the taxes were reduced too - as they are in China.

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    Re: More employment

    Post by papa_umau on Sun 03 Jun 2012, 1:32 pm

    You still don't get it Clapco, do you ?

    Nobody, even you, can compare life in China and in India and in any of the other slave-wage countries with life in Britain as this is not comparing like-with-like.

    It is eminently foolish to even try to suggest that the people of the fully-developed Western countries could work for the wages that the far Eastern and other tiger economies work for as they do not have our COST OF LIVING.

    Even although I am starting to wear down my fingertips trying to get this simple message across to you - and failing it would seem - I do not think that you don't really already know this difference and that you are in fact just being argumentative for argument's-sake.


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    Re: More employment

    Post by Guest on Sun 03 Jun 2012, 2:15 pm

    You are the one that is failing to get the message my friend. You can stereotype as much as you like about slave wages but as long as we can go into a shop and buy goods from those countries we will NEVER be competitive. There are currently 2 million+ unemployed as living proof. The only other answer would be to hide behind widespread import tariffs once more.

    The sooner people realise that we live in a competitive world and stop depending on the state the better.
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    Re: More employment

    Post by papa_umau on Mon 04 Jun 2012, 11:40 am

    That, my friend, is a different argument altogether as if we were to do that we would have to put up import protection tariffs in order to stop cheap consumer goods from coming from the "wage-slave" countries. ( Import protection tariffs work in both directions and if we put them up the countries that we export to would follow suit and we would finish up much worse off ).

    This does not change the fact that - stereotype or not - these countries do work on much smaller wage-bill costs than we do and that is why we cannot compete with them; NOT because we "pay ourselves too much".

    I will try to say it in an even simpler manner, especially for you: So long as the cost of living in Britain remains as high as it is the few people that are left who make the goods here have to be paid a wage that equates with what it costs to them to subsist.

    That said, I DO agree that some of the fat-cats at the top of this earnings tree need to pay themselves less as they have this choice. The people at the bottom end of British society do not have this choice.

    But of course, you will NEVER be able to see that will you ?


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    Re: More employment

    Post by Guest on Tue 05 Jun 2012, 8:34 am

    You are saying the same thing as me - if people cannot earn enough to subsist then they vote with their feet (not that they have a choice) and become unemployed. The cost of living is what it says on the tin, a cost. Sites like ROB do their bit to keep it down, and the government should too by ensuring a level playing field and keeping taxes low. But the main reason it is high is that we are paying ourselves too much - you single out management, that is just the politics of envy.

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    Re: More employment

    Post by papa_umau on Tue 05 Jun 2012, 11:32 am

    I will say it again, even MORE simpler this time:

    So long as British employers are forced, ( and they have to be "forced" because they will not do it willingly ), to pay a correct minimum-living-wage, the workers of Britain will be able to subsist !

    So long as the tiger-trading nations pay their workers the very low living wage that their society demands we in the expensive West will NEVER be able to compete.

    These two points are immutable and final and as long as that set of conditions exist we will struggle to export to foreign countries.

    Your unrealistic answer which seems to me to say that the British workers should somehow be expected to survive on the slave-wage rates that the Eastern workers manage on has got to be accepted by all sane people as total and utter nonsense.


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    Re: More employment

    Post by Guest on Tue 05 Jun 2012, 12:33 pm

    Not at all - As I originally posted there are people keen to work who will bypass the system to do so. The MW has the sole effect of raising unemployment. Nothing else. So while you sit back in your ivory tower feeling smug, think of the 2 million for whom your panacea has failed.
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    Re: More employment

    Post by papa_umau on Wed 06 Jun 2012, 2:27 pm

    The minimum wage only fails if it is not enforced - as it should be !

    The gang-masters - not surprisingly, who have similar standards as you have - are the ones that prey on the weak and the dispossessed that are forced to work for them at less than the minimum wage.

    As a Socialist I have always been well-aware that many such employers will circumvent the laws of the land if they are allowed to get away with it and that is why these laws - correctly applied and enforced - are there in the first place.

    If you are running a business where you cannot pay your employees a living wage then you should take that business and rebuild it in some foreign country that will allow you to rip-off your employees.


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    Re: More employment

    Post by Guest on Wed 06 Jun 2012, 3:37 pm

    That is my entire point - by enacting MW legislation all the industries your ROB mates clearly identify as necessary end up offshore!

    Get rid of the legislation and see employment drop. What is happening to them is CRIMINAL

    Clapco

    PS As to Bruin the Ruin, I have never met the guy, I neither like nor dislike the guy. From what I read he was a control freak but I didn't have to work with him. Its his actions that appall me: burying the country in debt to ensure his re-election was never going to work. Nobody (well apart from die hard Labour supporters) bought it.
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    Re: More employment

    Post by papa_umau on Sun 10 Jun 2012, 1:08 pm

    Clapco wrote:That is my entire point - by enacting MW legislation all the industries your ROB mates clearly identify as necessary end up offshore!

    Get rid of the legislation and see employment drop. What is happening to them is CRIMINAL

    Clapco

    Ignoring your diatribe about Gordon Brown - as that is now water under the bridge - I want to take you up on your knee-jerk point about the minimum wage:

    As I already said, if an employer is unable to run a company and make enough profit without paying their workers less than a liveable wage then that employer is better out of this country and paying a slave-wage to the workers they will find offshore.

    There is a balance of income and expenditure at the bottom end in this country and if the lowest incomes are set at a standard where the people earning them cannot subsist and still spend on the high-street then the knock-on effect of a slow or even stopped economy is the result. ( Refer to Cameron and Osborne policies and this point will be quickly supported ).

    Even the female boss of the IMF, Christine Lagarde, said recently that Cameron and Osborne need to stimulate growth if they ever want Britain to get out of this double-dip recession and it is not surprising at all to me that you and Osborne are thinking along the exact-same lines.


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    Re: More employment

    Post by Guest on Sun 10 Jun 2012, 1:46 pm

    I think she meant tax cuts, not just austerity

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    Re: More employment

    Post by papa_umau on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 11:33 am

    I don't know what news-item you were watching, but to me she made it clear that she wanted Britain to start to stimulate growth instead of just following the blind and stubborn actions of Cameron and Osborne as they squeeze the life out of this country.

    Then again, of course, the Tories have always thought that high unemployment and strict wage controls were reasonable prices to pay for keeping inflation down, ( not working ), and for reducing the borrowing deficit. ( Not working either ).

    The only TAX initiatives they seem to care about is reducing tax for their privileged pals and increasing it for the weakest in our society, especially the eldest. ( The granny-tax springs to mind here ).


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    Re: More employment

    Post by Guest on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 4:04 pm

    OK then Mr Expert - how would you reduce unemployment?

    Clapco

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