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    The problem with Greece.....

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    papa_umau
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    The problem with Greece.....

    Post by papa_umau on Mon 14 May 2012, 12:52 pm

    Yes, I know that what happens in Greece might not seem to be all that important to the people of Britain but I think that it actually should be as what is about to happen in Greece could bring the whole EU house of cards down.

    OK... we are not members of the Eurozone and that will protect us to some degree but we are signatories to the Treaty of Rome and as such we are tied to the fortunes of Europe in many ways.

    With the latest failure to come up with a coalition solution to the Greek debt crisis we may now have to watch Greece going to the polls again and a very strong chance that the extremist left in Greece may be elected.

    This group - radical left-wing Syriza and socialist PASOK group - will now be expected to get elected on a popular argument of dumping Greece's austerity packages and risking being ejected from the EU and the Eurozone as they do it.

    If successful this extremist left-wing party could cause many other countries to go the same way as populist votes might then allow most of Europe to lurch over to the far left.

    What I want to ask is: Do the more-moderate people of Britain think that this could be a good answer or do they worry that extremist leftists might bring Europe to it's knees and that this could effect Britain markedly too ?


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    Re: The problem with Greece.....

    Post by Guest on Mon 14 May 2012, 2:52 pm

    I would have thought the only people on their knees would be the people who have lent them the money in the first place. Once defaulting on debts (or welshing to use a colloquialism) becomes acceptable then anyone with any savings better get them out quickly!

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    Re: The problem with Greece.....

    Post by papa_umau on Tue 15 May 2012, 1:22 pm

    While I must agree with that argument I also have to say that it is now the view in Greece - and in many other countries in the Eurozone - that it is always the small investors and the people on the ground and the ordinary taxpayers that are made to come to the rescue of the idiots that run the countries and the big businesses and the reckless investment giants that actual create the conditions that force austerity measures.

    I think that the people have has enough of "austerity" as these austerity-drives only seem to hurt the weak and the old and the sick and the poor while - it seems - that the people who should be running these countries are continually protected from the increased pain of these austerity moves.

    The straw that broke the camel's back has already been laid and the camel has had enough !


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    Re: The problem with Greece.....

    Post by Guest on Wed 16 May 2012, 4:49 pm

    Resorting to stereotypes I see. I think you will find that the debt was run up by the government not the private sector. Spending too much on welfare no doubt to please an electorate that were content to mortgage their children's future. Probably left wing.

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    Re: The problem with Greece.....

    Post by papa_umau on Thu 17 May 2012, 12:50 pm

    TYPICAL !

    "There is none so blind as those who WILL NOT see" is a saying that fits very well here !

    People like you choose not to see that it was the people at the top - who we were supposed to trust - in many walks of life - including in government - that created the situation where countries and establishments got into serious debt where and when it is always the people on-the-ground that have to bail these reckless and incompetent idiots out from the mistakes they get paid obscene salaries for creating.

    THIS...single point....is what is also creating a far left-wing backlash in Europe that could end up doing more harm than good.

    We in Britain - stereotypically or not - are more reasonable in our values, and what - I predict - will happen here is that we too will lurch over to the left but we will not go as far as Greece and France and a few other European countries are going to go.

    As usual, our moderate actions in this respect will give Europe a lead to follow that will make them also more moderate in their uncontrolled passions.



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    Re: The problem with Greece.....

    Post by Guest on Fri 18 May 2012, 10:10 am

    WTF?

    You are the one that is trying to have us believe the private sector is to blame when it is the government debt that vastly exceeds the capacity of the country to pay it back.

    Unless you can back up your points with facts then they remain your fantasy!

    Please don't insult the intelligence of the readers of this forum by making out that you have some kind of insight into the situation when you know nothing about it. That is what the tabloids are for.

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    Re: The problem with Greece.....

    Post by papa_umau on Fri 18 May 2012, 12:41 pm

    "Government debt - government debt - government debt".... With that mantra you are beginning to sound more like Cameron every day, as if the only people getting it wrong were the last Labour government.

    Believe me, many other governments of completely different hues have also got it wrong in the past.

    If it might open your mind and make you look a bit further I will agree that while bad government is a major contributor to a country's debts there is actually plenty of blame to go around that will include the greedy and reckless privateer banks and investment and trading institutions as well.

    If we were to agree that it was the biggies - including the governments - that got us into this awful position, why is it then that it has to be the ordinary people and the taxpayers that have to keep bailing out these reckless and foolish idiots with their - the taxpayers - own hard earned money and it's the government austerity packages that hurt only these people on the ground at the same time ?

    It has always been them against us and until we get a government that thinks about us we will continue to be the victims of these incompetent fools in high places.



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    Re: The problem with Greece.....

    Post by Guest on Fri 18 May 2012, 1:22 pm

    Jeez - why does it always have to come down to conflict?

    It is much better to have an intelligent debate around the facts so that agreement can be reached and a solution found. Instead you prefer jingoism.

    The facts are that corporate debt is small beer compared to the public sector and ultimately it is voluntary - if you don't buy a product you can vote against the company with your feet. Gordon Brown borrowed Gazillions in my children's name and I can do NOTHING about it unless you call the election result a verdict. Private debt is significant but again voluntary - you can pay it down when it suits.

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    Re: The problem with Greece.....

    Post by jim on Fri 18 May 2012, 1:38 pm

    We are all doomed ?

    Mike Riddell at M&G believes there is no end in sight for the European debt crisis:

    Quote The disintegration of the euro looks to me to be the most likely outcome... we may get some temporary respite from the panic if Greece manages to form a government, but this will surely just prove temporary as further austerity leads to continued recession, civil discontent and greater support for extremist political parties [which is already scary – 1-in-14 Greeks just voted for a neo-Nazi party].

    "The ECB very probably has more tricks up its sleeve, which may be LTRO 3 or perhaps some form of Quantitative Easing [e.g. purchasing a GDP weighted portion of member states’ government bonds]. But these measures will again fail to address the underlying imbalances at the heart of the eurozone.
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    Re: The problem with Greece.....

    Post by papa_umau on Sat 19 May 2012, 10:57 am

    Sorry Jim, but I am not yet ready to join the doom and gloom purveyors as even although there are many people who are sitting in the wings and rubbing their hands in glee at the thought of the demise of the EU and the Euro....I am not one of them.

    Unlike our friend Clapco I am not sitting here willing to blame every government for everything, no, I am willing to agree that what has happened in Europe and in Britain too, ( to a lesser degree ), of the banks collapsing is what triggered this whole debt phenomenon in Europe.

    For the uninitiated and the ones with short memories I have to remind them that it was the banking crash precipitated in America that started this whole scandal and yet while the people who are truly to blame for this situation are either hiding in their "ivory towers" ( Clapco ), or are washing their dirty hands over it, they are also making sure that it is us that is bailing them out again and again.

    It is the constant application of austerity packages that is getting people up and out onto the streets as these people are now saying that they have been hammered by this nonsense long enough.


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    Angie baby
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    Re: The problem with Greece.....

    Post by Angie baby on Sun 20 May 2012, 11:33 am

    With the Tories being at their lowest ebb in the opinion polls since they tried and failed to get a working majority in Westminster it is now looking like the British people are getting close to revolution, if not an early general election.

    What with the hammering that the public sector, including the teachers like me, the fire-services, the police, and the local government workers are getting from the government we are going to see strikes after strikes from just about everybody that is not now willing to work longer, pay more and get less at the end that Cameron and his mob want us to do just so that we can be dragged down to the poor level of pensions that the private sector has.

    Everybody that is below the millionaire level is now going to be terrorised by these punishing austerity measures and what we are going to finish up with under this Con-Dem government is a lot of unhappy people.

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    Re: The problem with Greece.....

    Post by Guest on Mon 21 May 2012, 7:54 am

    At least you have a job Angie.

    As far as I am concerned public sector workers who strike should be shot in front of their families. Wait a minute....didn't someone else just say that?

    Seriously though with 'I'm all right Jack' attitudes like yours the unemployed don't stand a chance.

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    Re: The problem with Greece.....

    Post by papa_umau on Mon 21 May 2012, 12:28 pm

    As you might expect Clapco, I am with Angie on this one as I have always felt that we have to protect what we have and try to do this for others that are outwith the protective shield that is the public sector. ( Remember, I am a retired civil servant and I know all about this ).

    If Cameron and his idiot cabinet pals are allowed to get their way we will not see working conditions and pension-rights in the private sector being brought up to the standard in the public sector, no, we will see these standards being brought down to the miserable level that the weak employees in the private sector can do little about.

    As my old Irish granny used to say....."Two wrongs do not make a right !"


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    Re: The problem with Greece.....

    Post by Guest on Mon 21 May 2012, 2:27 pm

    As long as they can be paid for then it doesn't matter. The truth is it can't and as the civil service are paid from the public purse then is HAS to stop. Whether it is Cameron, Coalition or Centipede.

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    Re: The problem with Greece.....

    Post by papa_umau on Tue 22 May 2012, 11:35 am

    The thing is Clapco...that it can... be "paid for" I mean, as if one ignores all of the hype that this and Blair's government gave us as they keep blaming the people for what they get wrong then we will see that if we actually count the hidden money and drag it back from where it is hidden we will find that to run a decent and civilised government all they need to do is get some of that "lost" money back into the treasury coffers and then PAY FOR what needs to be paid.

    That get-out-clause that government after government spin at us is nothing more that a bare-faced lie which needs to be dismissed as a lie and cast aside as a flawed argument and con-trick.


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    Re: The problem with Greece.....

    Post by jim on Tue 22 May 2012, 1:44 pm


    Do they all deserve the pension pot ?

    THOUSANDS of our brightest pupils are let down by the quality of secondary school maths teaching, a damning report found.
    OFSTED chief says teachers today have it much easier than jobless youngsters
    Schools inspector Sir Michael Wilshaw said: “Too many able pupils do not fulfil their potential.
    Meanwhile, Christine Blower , The National Union of Teachers chief said she didn’t “accept the description ‘bad teacher’.
    But Tory MP Damian Hinds hit back: “To say there are no bad teachers is ludicrous.”

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    Re: The problem with Greece.....

    Post by Guest on Tue 22 May 2012, 7:56 pm

    Nice one Jim - I hadn't even considered the teachers.

    I do know Paps failed at school which is why he clings on so desperately to beliefs that have no basis in fact - that the government is paying out more than it receives and has been doing so for many years. Countries that redress this balance prosper - countries that don't go the way of Greece, Ireland, Spain, Italy, Latin America....how long before the UK becomes part of that exclusive club of losers?

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    Re: The problem with Greece.....

    Post by papa_umau on Wed 23 May 2012, 11:15 am

    jim wrote:
    Do they all deserve the pension pot ?

    THOUSANDS of our brightest pupils are let down by the quality of secondary school maths teaching, a damning report found.
    OFSTED chief says teachers today have it much easier than jobless youngsters
    Schools inspector Sir Michael Wilshaw said: “Too many able pupils do not fulfil their potential.
    Meanwhile, Christine Blower , The National Union of Teachers chief said she didn’t “accept the description ‘bad teacher’.
    But Tory MP Damian Hinds hit back: “To say there are no bad teachers is ludicrous.”

    A very good question Jim, and of course, just like any other professional that does a bad job, they should either be fixed by further training or sacked if they simply cannot do the job.

    This includes, of course, the reckless and incompetent bank and investment and corporation bosses as they still seem to get enhanced "pension- pots" and crazy salaries even if their companies are going down the tubes.

    After a FAIR investigation of all of these failing people is done then everybody that is left that IS doing a good job should be guaranteed by government to get a liveable pension.


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    Re: The problem with Greece.....

    Post by Guest on Thu 24 May 2012, 7:44 am

    You are changing the subject Paps - Jim was talking about teachers 'not fit for purpose'.

    He never mentioned smokers, er, sorry, bankers

    I seem to recall a survey from the Brown years that found the number of teachers sacked in the whole of the UK for incompetence was only a couple of handfuls? Ah yes - 16 in 40 years!

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2010/jul/04/struggling-teachers-woodhead-claims-dismissed

    Those government employees must be worth every penny of their salaries having to live in constant fear of being found out.....

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    Re: The problem with Greece.....

    Post by papa_umau on Thu 24 May 2012, 12:18 pm

    Read my answer again.... correctly this time and you will see that all I did was to widen the argument to include all people that are not doing a good job.

    I am sure that if you were interested enough to "look aboot ye", you would see that what Jim is saying applies to a heck-of-a-lot of people out there and not just failing teachers.


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    Re: The problem with Greece.....

    Post by Guest on Thu 24 May 2012, 3:04 pm

    Why don't you look at my post on alcohol prices and pubs then and tell me why you thought i was trying to change the subject. You can't have it both ways m8...

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    Re: The problem with Greece.....

    Post by papa_umau on Fri 25 May 2012, 11:45 am

    Your shifting from the cost of drinking in Pubs to the smoking ban WAS a complete change of subject and these subjects are not connected in any way.

    The fact that there are bad teachers and there are also bad - sometimes completely useless - captains of industry and commerce and even in government is a very-well connected argument.

    If you cannot see that they you are as entrenched as I have always thought you were.


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    Re: The problem with Greece.....

    Post by Guest on Fri 25 May 2012, 3:40 pm

    The thing is - the taxpayer picks up the tab for useless public sector workers. In the private sector the companies usually just go bust and individuals do not have to pay if they chose not to be suppliers/customers to the failed company.

    Huge difference - no doubt you will mention the Scottish banks, but that was a political decision.

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    Re: The problem with Greece.....

    Post by papa_umau on Sat 26 May 2012, 11:23 am

    Stop generalising Clapco, as companies "going bust" have a myriad of reasons for that condition to come about. The main one - as I see it - is the fact that the company bosses couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery.

    Incompetent management is just as bad as - in fact worse than - the same indictment against a few of their workforce. ( That does not mean that they should have carte-blanche with easy sackings ).

    AND.... just because the public sector is paid via government money, ( which mostly comes from the taxpayer ), does not mean that in the main, it is not doing a good job. The Civil Service, of which I have a vast experience, is, in the main, very expert and competent and shifting those jobs to the profit-mad private sector seldom, if ever, works.

    The public sector, including the teachers, when they are not getting interfered with, do a great job also and I am sure that the weeding out of bad teachers is already a priority for the educational inspectors.



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    Re: The problem with Greece.....

    Post by Guest on Sat 26 May 2012, 2:35 pm

    You are mixing up your posts Paps - easier sackings are under 'More employment'

    I suppose you must be right that ultimately it is bad management that causes a company to fail, but bad management is not the exclusive property of the private sector - the public sector abounds with examples such as Gordon Brown.

    My point is that the public sector mistakes are paid for by the public. The private sector by the (usually rich) shareholders so I hold no concern for them. They can 'look after themselves' as you so often say.

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