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    Back in recession again.

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    papa_umau
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    Back in recession again.

    Post by papa_umau on Thu 26 Apr 2012, 11:37 am

    I remember well when many of us said that if the Tory government carry on with their draconian austerity measures there would be a "double-dip" into recession. Many of the pundits, and the Tories of course, said that what they were doing would ensure that the country's debts would be repaid and that we would not go into recession again.

    Well, we did, and Cameron and Osborne are not willing to take any of the blame for the situation.

    I wonder what they plan to do now to get some growth into this economy and to stop the unemployed figures reaching that "magic" three million again ?


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    Recession

    Post by Technician on Fri 27 Apr 2012, 11:37 am

    Hi all,

    Hello Paps, very sad this for all of us. At FIRST I was deluded enough to think that Cameron and Osborne may have a handle on this, but as time has gone on it gets worse and worse. I know I have said a great deal about the EU and the banks which many do not agree with, but it again seems to me a question of priorities.

    Both greed and incompetence rule the roost here I think. I am pretty damn sure this country could save billions and treat its citizens with a degree of respect if this greed factor and corruption were not so prominent.( but of course its not just Britain is it ! ) As for economic theory, then I thinks you take your pick; its like most social theory there is just not one right answer. I do know that Labour are as incompetent as this bunch, or at least appear to be....So who can we trust, and more to the point who the hell understands WHAT to do !

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    Re: Back in recession again.

    Post by papa_umau on Fri 27 Apr 2012, 12:14 pm

    Yes Technician, there is no doubt that for some number of years, through the real Tory governments and the ersatz Tory government that was New-Labour, ( not Labour BTW ), we have seen the state of this country go from bad to worse and because of this situation many people now think that they cannot trust ANY of the political parties any more.

    That is why myself and a bunch of mates have started up the "Bring Back Labour" campaign so that the next government will have the needs of the ordinary people of Britain close to their minds and hearts when they go for election in 2015.

    We see the future as being framed up with the best of the real-Labour ethics included so that while the dogma of old might be dropped, all of the best qualities of the Labour movement might be brought back so that some sense and fairness may be injected into British politics once again.

    To this end we of the "Bring Back Labour" campaign have started to lobby all of the Labour Party members of parliament and as many people as we know that can add to this letter-writing cause that will finally produce a government that will once again protect the poor, the sick, the weak and the old instead of spending all of their waking hours protecting the ones that do not need protecting.

    If any of you can see past your old prejudices and are willing to help in this cause then you can by going HERE and downloading and sending our pre-prepared letter to Ed Miliband so that he is left in NO DOUBT what we want from him and his party after the next general election.

    The letter is phrased in such a way that you can add what you like as an introduction and so that you can sign it as an individual so that Ed Miliband and his team do not get the idea that they are being spammed by us.

    We believe that the time for whining and complaining and letting them get on with it is now over and that it is time that the ordinary people of Britain stood up and were counted once again.


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    Re: Back in recession again.

    Post by Angie baby on Sat 28 Apr 2012, 1:33 pm

    That's going to be a lot of work for you Papa !

    Let me wish you and your group the best of luck with your campaign as it is sure that labour seems to have "lost its way".

    I only hope that Ed Miliband has the passion and the will to truly take Labour back to its roots without also taking it back to the bad old days.

    I think that very few people will want to see Labour controlled by the unions again.
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    Re: Back in recession again.

    Post by papa_umau on Sun 29 Apr 2012, 12:25 pm

    Yes, it certainly is Angie, but I think that the effort is worth-while if we are going to influence how the Labour party and possible next government develop.

    I guess we will have to see if our efforts are going to be rewarded.

    I must already say that I have seen and heard a few words from people that we have already spoken to where some of our ideas are getting to see the light.

    Lets hope that we see much more of this over the next three years !


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    Re: Back in recession again.

    Post by Parliament.... on Sun 29 Apr 2012, 2:54 pm

    Angie baby wrote:That's going to be a lot of work for you Papa !

    Let me wish you and your group the best of luck with your campaign as it is sure that labour seems to have "lost its way".

    I only hope that Ed Miliband has the passion and the will to truly take Labour back to its roots without also taking it back to the bad old days.

    I think that very few people will want to see Labour controlled by the unions again.

    Angie-baby,

    If it wasnt for the Unions against the back drop of Victorian Britain, we would all be still living in mud huts.

    We have traditional Labour's core values along with Union power backed by ordinary working class people of the past, to thank for todays relativelly civilised conditions.

    The problem with today's British is that we seemingly have no need of the working class struggle, because we are all so very middle class with middle class aspirations, in short, greedy selfish, individualism. We cannot continue running our country for the sake of just one sector of Society.

    Pap and I have included in our campaign letter going out to as many people "in the know" as possible, that Britain needs to become a "fair" country where there is no need for the political extremes of the past, giving no need for the British working person to strike, or even want to strike.

    At present and under this right wing Tory lead coaltion, the public sector as individual groups are fighting for their jobs and their pensions. I would ask, where were these public sector workers when our elderly people are fighting for fairness in State pensions provision ?, with even now the Tory state pension increase is a joke.

    I put it to you Angie baby, that the Unions arent the problem, we will always need Unions when there is Government exploitation. Middle class Britain is the problem, because they do not want their little boat rocked.




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    Re: Back in recession again.

    Post by Guest on Sun 29 Apr 2012, 7:41 pm

    Just what we need - another Labour government - NOT!

    Brown and his sidekick Balls got us in this mess in the first place. Having proved they cannot be trusted with the family silver, you propose that we do so again?

    What is wrong with the Scotland? Is there something in the air or water that turns normally sane intelligent people into babbling morons that vote Labour because their father did so? Just look at the tower blocks of assisted housing and ask yourself 'Is Labour really working?'

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    Re: Back in recession again.

    Post by papa_umau on Mon 30 Apr 2012, 12:56 pm

    I am sorry that you are still restricted by your old prejudices Clapco, as if you just opened your mind and allowed it to see the possibilities you too would see that the only direction that Britain can now take is one where the government that is in charge is willing and able to fix what is wrong in our broken society.

    Yes, many people from the right - just like yourself - will still see the flaws that are certainly endemic to Old-labour but seeing these flaws should not be a reason for throwing the baby out with the bath-water. Those of us that CAN see those flaws CAN get rid of them and turn Labour into a force for good in the future.

    Over the past fifty years or so we have seen many different versions of Labour and of Tory-ism and while the Old-Labour days are now gone and the New-Labour days of Blair and Brown and yes, Balls are devalued and gone too all that is left is a true and best version of the values that were created at the inception of the original Labour Party in the 1900-s.

    The version that should be created now is the one that takes care of the ordinary people of Britain and that does not allow the unions or the CBI to control it or it's policies. It should be a "party of the people" once again where the people that have been ripping us off for so many years are once again held in a tight grip of control and where old and dogmatic values are replaced by modern and fair values that are found in a truly fair society.

    The dogmatic Old-Labourites will not do this, the Old or New-Tories will not do this and the Liberal Democrats will not do it either as they have been ruined by their alliance with Tory-ism.

    It is time for a true "third way" and that can only be achieved by a party and government that have the right set of human values at it's core !


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    Re: Back in recession again.

    Post by Parliament.... on Mon 30 Apr 2012, 3:35 pm

    Technician wrote:Hi all,

    Hello Paps, very sad this for all of us. At FIRST I was deluded enough to think that Cameron and Osborne may have a handle on this, but as time has gone on it gets worse and worse. I know I have said a great deal about the EU and the banks which many do not agree with, but it again seems to me a question of priorities.

    Both greed and incompetence rule the roost here I think. I am pretty damn sure this country could save billions and treat its citizens with a degree of respect if this greed factor and corruption were not so prominent.( but of course its not just Britain is it ! ) As for economic theory, then I thinks you take your pick; its like most social theory there is just not one right answer. I do know that Labour are as incompetent as this bunch, or at least appear to be....So who can we trust, and more to the point who the hell understands WHAT to do !

    Technician

    Hi Technician, No offence but Both Cameron and Osborne are right wing Tories, so I have to say there is nothing "incomptent" about what they are both doing.

    They are both removing the "roll of the State", in favour of privatisation and charities, and this Agenda is ideolically driven

    And "New" Labour, whom you refere to as Labour, were as right wing as Thatcher having adopted all of her fundamental right wing policies from 1997 to 2010.

    So infact both Mr Cameron and Mr Osborbe, are being very competent indeed in looking after their own, very nicely, while the rest of the country blame Labour's so called Deficit. It's crap.


    Last edited by Ivanhoe on Tue 01 May 2012, 3:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Back in recession again.

    Post by Parliament.... on Mon 30 Apr 2012, 3:52 pm

    papa_umau wrote:I am sorry that you are still restricted by your old prejudices Clapco, as if you just opened your mind and allowed it to see the possibilities you too would see that the only direction that Britain can now take is one where the government that is in charge is willing and able to fix what is wrong in our broken society.

    Yes, many people from the right - just like yourself - will still see the flaws that are certainly endemic to Old-labour but seeing these flaws should not be a reason for throwing the baby out with the bath-water. Those of us that CAN see those flaws CAN get rid of them and turn Labour into a force for good in the future.

    Over the past fifty years or so we have seen many different versions of Labour and of Tory-ism and while the Old-Labour days are now gone and the New-Labour days of Blair and Brown and yes, Balls are devalued and gone too all that is left is a true and best version of the values that were created at the inception of the original Labour Party in the 1900-s.

    The version that should be created now is the one that takes care of the ordinary people of Britain and that does not allow the unions or the CBI to control it or it's policies. It should be a "party of the people" once again where the people that have been ripping us off for so many years are once again held in a tight grip of control and where old and dogmatic values are replaced by modern and fair values that are found in a truly fair society.

    The dogmatic Old-Labourites will not do this, the Old or New-Tories will not do this and the Liberal Democrats will not do it either as they have been ruined by their alliance with Tory-ism.

    It is time for a true "third way" and that can only be achieved by a party and government that have the right set of human values at it's core !

    Pap, no right winger, least of all your friend, is going to want anything as broad and intellectual as you write about on here.

    Their's is a simple recipee, no increases in income tax to pay for welfare scroungers and wasters. This is the mindset of today's right wingers among the British public.

    Their's is a small mindedness, which refuses and/or doesnt want to see the wider picture, because this costs them more money in higher taxes. This is how I see and picture right wing mindsets among the British working class voters in general, and ille include this, they hate the idea that some people care of welfare, are getting something they cant get.
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    Re: Back in recession again.

    Post by papa_umau on Tue 01 May 2012, 11:31 am

    While it might be true that there are some welfare "scroungers" out there, don't think the full story is anything as simple as that.

    Many of the people who prefer to stay on the miserable income they get from the welfare system are doing so because they simply have no choice. With the high cost of living and the loss of benefits that going back to a poorly-paid job brings it is now not worth-while for many people at the bottom end to even look for decent-paid work that is still very hard or impossible to find.

    When all of the money that is earned by the second earner in any family, ( now the norm ), is used up paying for child-care this stops even a mother from going out to work in order to augment the family income. All this situation adds up to is a TRAP that means that either one or both family members working for a pittance are better off on benefits.

    This situation amongst financial experts is known as "The benefits trap" or "The poverty trap" and it is endemic to that strata of society that get hammered by thoughtless right-wingers who cannot see what is obvious to anybody that actually looks.


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    Re: Back in recession again.

    Post by Parliament.... on Tue 01 May 2012, 3:06 pm

    papa_umau wrote:While it might be true that there are some welfare "scroungers" out there, don't think the full story is anything as simple as that.

    Many of the people who prefer to stay on the miserable income they get from the welfare system are doing so because they simply have no choice. With the high cost of living and the loss of benefits that going back to a poorly-paid job brings it is now not worth-while for many people at the bottom end to even look for decent-paid work that is still very hard or impossible to find.

    When all of the money that is earned by the second earner in any family, ( now the norm ), is used up paying for child-care this stops even a mother from going out to work in order to augment the family income. All this situation adds up to is a TRAP that means that either one or both family members working for a pittance are better off on benefits.

    This situation amongst financial experts is known as "The benefits trap" or "The poverty trap" and it is endemic to that strata of society that get hammered by thoughtless right-wingers who cannot see what is obvious to anybody that actually looks.

    Pap, If I had my way, I would increase all welfare benefits, and I would abolish means testing. The EU's, what they call "Social "protection", isnt means tested.

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    Re: Back in recession again.

    Post by Parliament.... on Tue 01 May 2012, 4:36 pm

    papa_umau wrote:While it might be true that there are some welfare "scroungers" out there, don't think the full story is anything as simple as that.

    Many of the people who prefer to stay on the miserable income they get from the welfare system are doing so because they simply have no choice. With the high cost of living and the loss of benefits that going back to a poorly-paid job brings it is now not worth-while for many people at the bottom end to even look for decent-paid work that is still very hard or impossible to find.

    When all of the money that is earned by the second earner in any family, ( now the norm ), is used up paying for child-care this stops even a mother from going out to work in order to augment the family income. All this situation adds up to is a TRAP that means that either one or both family members working for a pittance are better off on benefits.

    This situation amongst financial experts is known as "The benefits trap" or "The poverty trap" and it is endemic to that strata of society that get hammered by thoughtless right-wingers who cannot see what is obvious to anybody that actually looks.

    """""Many of the people who prefer to stay on the miserable income they get from the welfare system are doing so because they simply have no choice"""

    Precisely Pap.

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    Re: Back in recession again.

    Post by Guest on Wed 02 May 2012, 8:27 am

    ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

    What utter nonsense you lot speak. We are a world away from the working conditions of the 19th century and the majority of the public see and understand that. They want to huddle together in the centre ground of consensus politics as they always have. All Bliar and Cameron have done is recognise that fact and shift to the centre by giving the public 'what they want'

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    Re: Back in recession again.

    Post by papa_umau on Wed 02 May 2012, 11:34 am

    I will slightly rephrase that and make it true:

    Blair and Cameron moved their "consensus politics" to the centre ground NOT because "that was what they wanted" but because that was where they thought the main stock of votes might come from.

    As my friend Karl Marx once said:

    "Politicians should stay out of the "centre ground" as that is the dangerous place where all of the traffic runs !"

    And he might be right about that as it is only when our politics are based on philosophies set to the left or right that they start to have meaning for the thinking humans that subscribe to these political directions.

    In other words; I believe that if the voters care about anything it will have to come from a political philosophy that is deliberately to the left or right of centre. In my case this philosophy is from the left of centre as that - I believe - is where the care for the ordinary people of this country will come.

    I also believe that the people to the right of centre are always more interested in themselves and their own to care a jot about the rest.


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    Re: Back in recession again.

    Post by Parliament.... on Wed 02 May 2012, 11:47 am

    papa_umau wrote:I will slightly rephrase that and make it true:

    Blair and Cameron moved their "consensus politics" to the centre ground NOT because "that was what they wanted" but because that was where they thought the main stock of votes might come from.

    As my friend Karl Marx once said:

    "Politicians should stay out of the "centre ground" as that is the dangerous place where all of the traffic runs !"

    And he might be right about that as it is only when our politics are based on philosophies set to the left or right that they start to have meaning for the thinking humans that subscribe to these political directions.

    In other words; I believe that if the voters care about anything it will have to come from a political philosophy that is deliberately to the left or right of centre. In my case this philosophy is from the left of centre as that - I believe - is where the care for the ordinary people of this country will come.

    I also believe that the people to the right of centre are always more interested in themselves and their own to care a jot about the rest.

    Pap, Blair and Brown embraced Thatcher's ultra right wing Agenda from 1997, and not the centre ground.

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    Re: Back in recession again.

    Post by Guest on Wed 02 May 2012, 12:44 pm

    Ah hahahahahahahaha

    You know how to tell 'em

    I was there - somehow I think you were not.....

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    Re: Back in recession again.

    Post by papa_umau on Thu 03 May 2012, 12:50 pm

    Ivanhoe....

    I think that you are astute enough to realise that when Blair and his cohorts dragged the Labour Party over to the right he did so in a way that grabbed the attention of as many voters as possible. To enable him to do that he created New-Labour, ( as you well know ), and he started to spout many arguments that were once the reserve of the Tories and only the Tories of the past.

    This had the successful effect of drawing many dissatisfied and disenchanted previous Tory voters over to his New-Labour camp and as a result he won two landslide victories over the real Tories.

    All this rhetoric aside he STILL made it clear that his New-Labour government were coming from the centre-left and not from the centre or from the right. He did this so that he would not lose the voters that were still willing to support a centre-left entity.

    What became of New-Labour after their second landslide victory is now recorded in history and what happened then is why we are starting a campaign to bring Labour back to it's roots.

    In other words, before we are going to be able to beat our enemies we have to know all about them and where they are and have come from in the past.


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    Re: Back in recession again.

    Post by Parliament.... on Thu 03 May 2012, 1:03 pm

    papa_umau wrote:Ivanhoe....

    I think that you are astute enough to realise that when Blair and his cohorts dragged the Labour Party over to the right he did so in a way that grabbed the attention of as many voters as possible. To enable him to do that he created New-Labour, ( as you well know ), and he started to spout many arguments that were once the reserve of the Tories and only the Tories of the past.

    This had the successful effect of drawing many dissatisfied and disenchanted previous Tory voters over to his New-Labour camp and as a result he won two landslide victories over the real Tories.

    All this rhetoric aside he STILL made it clear that his New-Labour government were coming from the centre-left and not from the centre or from the right. He did this so that he would not lose the voters that were still willing to support a centre-left entity.

    What became of New-Labour after their second landslide victory is now recorded in history and what happened then is why we are starting a campaign to bring Labour back to it's roots.

    In other words, before we are going to be able to beat our enemies we have to know all about them and where they are and have come from in the past.

    Pap, you are taking coals to Newcastle, here. Whatever the retorich as you say, Tony Blair and Gordon Brown spent their
    13 years in the H/O/C, embracing Thatcher's free market, tax cuts for the top, means tested handouts for everyone else.
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    Re: Back in recession again.

    Post by papa_umau on Thu 03 May 2012, 1:38 pm

    Yes Ivanhoe, I have never denied that....BUT... that story is much more complicated than you seem willing to admit !


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    Re: Back in recession again.

    Post by Parliament.... on Thu 03 May 2012, 1:55 pm

    papa_umau wrote:Yes Ivanhoe, I have never denied that....BUT... that story is much more complicated than you seem willing to admit !

    "Complicated" Pap ?
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    Re: Back in recession again.

    Post by papa_umau on Fri 04 May 2012, 1:46 pm

    As you said to me recently..."read my last bit - ( in the quoted box ) - again" and you will find out why I say that the "story is more complicated than you are willing to admit".

    Such political machinations are never "simple" and they are never so black and white as you try to paint them.

    Blair was a very clever man and he and his cohorts created a very complex animal when they created New-Labour.


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    Re: Back in recession again.

    Post by Guest on Fri 04 May 2012, 4:26 pm

    Hmmmm - you mean he stole the ideas from Bill Clinton via Peter Mandelson.......

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    Re: Back in recession again.

    Post by papa_umau on Sat 05 May 2012, 12:54 pm

    I don't know where he got the ideas from, but they certainly worked as New-Labour beat the Tories hands down twice in landslide elections !

    I think that his attempt to drag the disaffected previous-Tory-voters over to his rightist New-Labour camp worked a treat - ( and I will say it again: "TWICE" ) - but I do not think that trick will work again even IF the Tories are now at their lowest ebb since they were forced to go cap-in-hand to the Liberal Democrats in order to acquire a voting majority.


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    Re: Back in recession again.

    Post by Guest on Sun 06 May 2012, 8:35 am

    You mustn't let your dislike for the Tories colour your judgement Paps - Their lowest was under Hague I believe who managed to turn a Labour landslide into an even bigger Labour majority by riding on the anti - EU ticket.

    What you are seeing is just mid term blues - expect tax cuts, recovery and a full Conservative government next election!

    You read it here first on ripped off Britain folks!

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