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    What have we got to lose by coming out of Europe ?

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    papa_umau
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    Re: What have we got to lose by coming out of Europe ?

    Post by papa_umau on Mon 19 Dec 2011, 12:42 pm

    Laying narrow politics aside for a minute I still say that if this government - ANY government - have less income to their treasury coffers they will have less money to spend on the causes that are closest to our hearts.

    Voluntarily or compulsorily coming out of, or being sidelined by, Europe will leave most of us - and especially the poor and the weak and the old - AS USUAL - the worse off.

    Even Cameron admitted this in his last speech but our David wants to take OUT all of the benefits of being in the EU but does not want his city pals to have to pay into, or be controlled by, the new systems of banking and borrowing that he vetoed.

    He was "in your face" yesterday saying that our banks are going to be better regulated but in fact all he is doing via his own chancellor's actions is fiddling around the edges instead of hammering them and letting them know that we are not going to put up with any more of their reckless shenanigans.

    As I already said...."He wants his cake but he wants to eat it too" !


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    Re: What have we got to lose by coming out of Europe ?

    Post by Parliament.... on Mon 19 Dec 2011, 2:46 pm

    papa_umau wrote:Laying narrow politics aside for a minute I still say that if this government - ANY government - have less income to their treasury coffers they will have less money to spend on the causes that are closest to our hearts.

    Voluntarily or compulsorily coming out of, or being sidelined by, Europe will leave most of us - and especially the poor and the weak and the old - AS USUAL - the worse off.

    Even Cameron admitted this in his last speech but our David wants to take OUT all of the benefits of being in the EU but does not want his city pals to have to pay into, or be controlled by, the new systems of banking and borrowing that he vetoed.

    He was "in your face" yesterday saying that our banks are going to be better regulated but in fact all he is doing via his own chancellor's actions is fiddling around the edges instead of hammering them and letting them know that we are not going to put up with any more of their reckless shenanigans.

    As I already said...."He wants his cake but he wants to eat it too" !

    """"""""Laying narrow politics aside for a minute I still say that if this government - ANY government - have less income to their treasury coffers they will have less money to spend on the causes that are closest to our hearts""""""""

    Pap, I really would not call grass roots issues, "narrow politics". Also Britain's "economy" is neither nore there because we are still a very rich country. It is wealth distribution that is lacking in Britain, and quite frankly while the Torys are in charge of my country, the European Union with all it's problems, wont matter a damn to the ordinary Joe in this country.

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    Technician
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    Out of Europe

    Post by Technician on Mon 19 Dec 2011, 6:34 pm

    Hi all,

    This is in fact a circular argument. While I have no doubt about this coalition caring little for the people, and many being in it for their own ends; the issue again is lack of leadership and positive action. The treaty is a load of crap, insofar as it fails to deal with the real issues of the collapse of a failed dream, the Euro. The mess the EU countries have got themselves into when they need 'propping up' is akin to slavery. I can understand Camerons reluctance to sign up to this, but I can also see why the Euroluvvies are hopping mad ( you see Mr Sarkozy, Mrs Merkel..Non, Nein, No....Now P**s Off !!!)

    They are beholdent to the IMF and World Bank, whom,, I have said before are more than willing to asset strip the resources of these countries. The muppets in the EU ( the politicians, and those in the UK ) are in reality s***t scared of the banks, thus we see a tinkering about at the edges, and no real action. In the end the power of the banks will bring the whole rotten edifice down with themselves, but not before you and I suffer. Over and above indivividual party and indeed country politics you should be aware of the robber barons in finance pulling the strings.

    Here is a RARE example of a broadcast for the BBC. This guy spilled the beans, much to the consternation of the Beeb. They were so worried that they might have told a truth that they had him back a week later to try and get him to change his story !! ( link below )

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aC19fEqR5bA

    And on that note may I wish all on here a very merry Xmas and all the best for the New Year!!

    Technician

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    Re: What have we got to lose by coming out of Europe ?

    Post by Parliament.... on Mon 19 Dec 2011, 8:20 pm

    Technician wrote:Hi all,

    This is in fact a circular argument. While I have no doubt about this coalition caring little for the people, and many being in it for their own ends; the issue again is lack of leadership and positive action. The treaty is a load of crap, insofar as it fails to deal with the real issues of the collapse of a failed dream, the Euro. The mess the EU countries have got themselves into when they need 'propping up' is akin to slavery. I can understand Camerons reluctance to sign up to this, but I can also see why the Euroluvvies are hopping mad ( you see Mr Sarkozy, Mrs Merkel..Non, Nein, No....Now P**s Off !!!)

    They are beholdent to the IMF and World Bank, whom,, I have said before are more than willing to asset strip the resources of these countries. The muppets in the EU ( the politicians, and those in the UK ) are in reality s***t scared of the banks, thus we see a tinkering about at the edges, and no real action. In the end the power of the banks will bring the whole rotten edifice down with themselves, but not before you and I suffer. Over and above indivividual party and indeed country politics you should be aware of the robber barons in finance pulling the strings.

    Here is a RARE example of a broadcast for the BBC. This guy spilled the beans, much to the consternation of the Beeb. They were so worried that they might have told a truth that they had him back a week later to try and get him to change his story !! ( link below )

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aC19fEqR5bA

    And on that note may I wish all on here a very merry Xmas and all the best for the New Year!!

    Technician

    Technician. With all this intellectualism about the EU being bandied around on this site by mainly yourself and Pap, my bone of contention has always been Britain in Europe and adopting Europe's Social and economic policies, and you and Pap know what they are dont you.

    But under Cameron and Clegg this just isnt going to happen because both are operating under a right wing Agenda, the type of which are completely alien to the European Social democrats at the heart of Europe.

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    papa_umau
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    Re: What have we got to lose by coming out of Europe ?

    Post by papa_umau on Tue 20 Dec 2011, 12:49 pm

    That was an interesting link Technician. Thanks for that !

    Having said that I have to say that I would not expect a different response from someone who is deeply ensconced in the trading that goes around in the investment and speculative industries.

    He spoke about such traders pulling money away from risky investments to put it in government bonds etc, and I nearly choked when I heard that. These speculators play the risk game all of the time and up until the market crashed around their ears BECAUSE they took too many risks, they are now trying to tell us that they are at last being careful. No they are not !

    Osborne said that as part of his tightening up of the British banking system he was going to put up a "firewall" between the risk-based sector of banking and the normal and "dull" high-street banking sector that looks after people's savings and that delivers safe mortgages, so that one could not contaminate the other again. ( This is something that has been spoken about many times in the past and while it is a good idea it is only scratching the surface of what should be done to properly regulate our banking sectors ).

    Be certain-sure that the EU WILL go on even if it is going to be a much smaller and tighter setup in the future and once the proverbial dust has settled we are going to find many banks and speculators and investors and traders clamouring at the gate to get back into the EU and the Eurozone.

    It is patently unpleasant to see the vultures circling as these creatures take a twisted pleasure from seeing the EU and the Eurozone suffering from it's present problems.


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    riders_on_the_storm
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    Re: What have we got to lose by coming out of Europe ?

    Post by riders_on_the_storm on Fri 30 Dec 2011, 10:31 pm

    The ties to Europe are merely political and for the purposes of centralisation and the tip-toe implementation of an unelected dictatorship. In parallel with that all sovereign nations lose their democracy and ththe chance to hold elected representatives responsible for their actions.

    In that instance we would only lose the chance to become more entangled in the old-communist EUSSR project.

    I can hear paps saying where's he been all this time!

    R

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    Re: What have we got to lose by coming out of Europe ?

    Post by Parliament.... on Fri 30 Dec 2011, 11:46 pm

    riders_on_the_storm wrote:The ties to Europe are merely political and for the purposes of centralisation and the tip-toe implementation of an unelected dictatorship. In parallel with that all sovereign nations lose their democracy and ththe chance to hold elected representatives responsible for their actions.

    In that instance we would only lose the chance to become more entangled in the old-communist EUSSR project.

    I can hear paps saying where's he been all this time!

    R

    Because British workers pay their taxes and NI contributions into the centralised State system, I fail to see what's wrong with our vital services, Utilities, and pensions, being administered by the centralised State system ?

    Sure, if people can afford private this, that, and the other, while there will always be those that cannot,
    the centralised State system where our taxes and contrbutions go, should never be reduced to second best.

    Because despite our contributions, this is precisely what has happened since the 80's, and this is because the state system has been deliberately run down by the Tory right wing since Thatcher
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    papa_umau
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    Re: What have we got to lose by coming out of Europe ?

    Post by papa_umau on Sat 31 Dec 2011, 1:16 pm

    riders_on_the_storm wrote:The ties to Europe are merely political and for the purposes of centralisation and the tip-toe implementation of an unelected dictatorship. In parallel with that all sovereign nations lose their democracy and ththe chance to hold elected representatives responsible for their actions.

    In that instance we would only lose the chance to become more entangled in the old-communist EUSSR project.

    I can hear paps saying where's he been all this time!

    R

    Hi Andrew....Great to hear from you again !

    While you are right that a lot of the connections between these disparate states are political ones there are many more reasons than that for being allies with each-other. None-less than for trade reasons and for the ratification of human rights laws across all of these states.

    As Ivanhoe says there are times when central government is a good thing as laws centralised do not need to be expensively repeated locally. There are certainly SOME laws that have to be settled locally and that is when the sovereignty that I speak of comes into play.

    I can see no reason why any democratic rights might be lost so long as each of these sovereign states still hold to democracy at their core.

    ( I DO believe that many of the people who take part in the EC at the moment should be sacked and re-elected by democratic means ).

    Strange that you should mention the "old Communist EUSSR project" Andrew, as a prominent politician in The Russian Federation said yesterday that it would be good for Russia to drop the Rouble for the adoption of the Euro. This might be seen as a way for them into the Eurozone proper.

    I do not think that we in Europe need to worry too much about Communism any more as that political cause has been well-and-truly destroyed by Capitalism in the old Soviet states. We already have a number of the ex-Soviet satellite-states as members of the Eurozone and part of that greater European club called the EU.


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