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    From bad to worse

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    Technician
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    From bad to worse

    Post by Technician on Wed 02 Nov 2011, 9:44 am

    Hi All,

    Well, don't say i didn't warn you !!. It looks like the situation in Greece may reach crisis point soon. How the country cannot now default and pack in with the Euro is difficult to see. Of course the Greeks are great defaulters; its been quite normal in their hsitory to do this in time of debt. The government is in chaos, and the national mentality has been to make hay while the sun shines. ( can't balme then in that pretty country can you !! )

    Of course the real quandry is why they went into the EU in the first place !, although they have done pretty darn good out of it. Now, the real issue here is the word 'referendum'.

    This little word has plunged the EU into blind panic, as if the Greeks go forward with this idea; as part of 'democracy', which was nurtured in thier country in the first place then the overlords at the EU will be far from pleased.

    Funny that they seem to reject any notion of the population haveing a say ??. I dread to think what of the consequences of all of this, but I think the chickens may be coming home to roost.

    You just cannot go on ignoring the wishes of the populace, so lets see what transpires. IF the regerendun goes ahead, then they may vote for the austerity measures to stay in place but don't hold your breath. I think we can all see on our TV screens what the Greek populace think of all this. There are even posters in Athens of Angela Merkel dressed as an SS guard !!!

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    papa_umau
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    What has actually happened !

    Post by papa_umau on Wed 02 Nov 2011, 10:26 am

    What has actually happened in Greece is that the cowardly government have washed their hands of this crisis by throwing it into the lap of the people of Greece in a referendum.

    They knew fine well that this offer would destabilise the work that had been done to stabilise the problem and now - by this cowardly act - they have put the future of the Eurozone into the hands of the angry and terrified people of Greece. By this move they can then say it was NOT THEM that brought about the demise of the European Union.

    Once again, the people of Greece have been let down by their incompetent government.

    Disgusting I call it.


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    From bad to worse

    Post by Technician on Thu 03 Nov 2011, 10:27 am

    Hi Paps,

    Mmmm, I don't know if it is as simple as that. It certainly appears that Papandreou's actions are a last-ditch attempt to save his political skin. And this after months of mass street demonstrations over previous helpings of failed austerity that are driving Greek society to the brink.

    Merkel has simpy read him "the riot act" and even if the referendum is held the Greeks will certainly be subjected to a barrage of threats and blackmail. You might think giving people a say in the most crucial decisions affecting their countries would be normal for a union of states that claims democracy as its most sacred founding principle, obviously not !!!

    The real 'DISGUST' is that the deficit crisis has now escalated into a democratic crisis. To protect banks that lent to Greece and protect its elite from unwelcome tax demands, the country is being systematically stripped of its sovereignty as EU and IMF officials swarm over its ministries drafting budgets, setting policy deadlines, "advising" on tax and pushing through state selloffs. This is pushing Greece ever deeper into slump and debt. The referendum proposal at least should raise the question of an alternative to this farce.

    Portugal and Spain have also been reduced by stringent bailout conditions to the status of a 'protectorates' run from Brussels, Frankfurt and indeed Washington with dire economic and social consequences. Merkel last week raised the spectre of war if the eurozone goes down, none of the mainstream political parties across Europe is facing up to the failure of Euro model or the crisis of democracy it has sparked. To quote Milne, a current political commentator:

    "To tie together 17 countries with widely different levels of development and productivity around a single currency without large-scale tax and spend transfers, and underpin it with a rigidly deflationary central bank without full monetary powers, or any kind of credible democratic control, was always a disaster waiting to happen."

    God forbid, but it all seems a little like De ja Vue to me ???

    Technician

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    papa_umau
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    Re: From bad to worse

    Post by papa_umau on Thu 03 Nov 2011, 11:52 am

    Yes Technician that IS the easy and obvious tack to take but as you say, " it is not as simple as that".

    What has happened in Greece seems to me to be a government that has tried just about every knee-jerk trick that they think they can get away with and now that that has not worked to their requirements they are offloading their problems to the people.

    While you are right that this is all about democracy in action, in fact true democracy is carried out via the ballot box and cannot be sidelined by just throwing a problem, that the elected politicians have failed to sort out, into the laps of the people.

    Papandreou and his incompetent government knew that if they put this problem to the people that - in their present state - they would almost certainly vote to leave the Eurozone and maybe even the EU altogether and that would lift any blame for the disaster that would follow off his feeble shoulders.

    Merkel and Sarkozy have been shaken to their boots by this cowardly move as they know that if Greece are forced out of the Eurozone and the EU by this referendum that the repercussions will be massive over the entire union. I am sure that even David Cameron is terrified of what will happen if Papandreou gets a vote of no-confidence in this referendum as the crash that will follow will also hit Britain hard too.

    Other than trying to pass the buck to the Greek people I cannot honestly say why Papandreou has done this as he must know that it could bring down the whole EU via a domino-effect.

    In fact, I cannot even see Merkel and Sarkozy waiting for the result of this Greek referendum as it could take a month to engineer. No, I can see the power-base in the EU expelling Greece if they take too long to reach any decision.

    See this: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/03/greek-government-brink-of-collapse


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    zathrus
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    Re: From bad to worse

    Post by zathrus on Fri 04 Nov 2011, 12:11 pm

    It looks like Papa...whatsisname...( not a friend of yours I take it ), has bottled it and has cancelled his plan to put the Europe bailout of Greece to the people. Sounds about right.

    This particular bit of entertainment is not finished yet.

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    papa_umau
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    Re: From bad to worse

    Post by papa_umau on Sat 05 Nov 2011, 11:55 am

    No it is certainly not !

    I noticed in the paper this morning that Papandreou had actually won his vote of confidence by three votes. I still don't think that this result will give any other people any actual confidence about what Greece is going to do in the long run.

    Anyway, it is a good thing that he cancelled that foolish referendum idea as it was threatening to tear the EU apart.

    Certainly more to come ! Twisted Evil


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    Angie baby
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    Re: From bad to worse

    Post by Angie baby on Sat 05 Nov 2011, 12:19 pm

    Even I, who is not all that interested in politics, have started to enjoy all of the twists and turns that this story is taking.

    I bet that when it finally ends Europe is going to look like a whole different animal.

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    Re: From bad to worse

    Post by Guest on Sun 20 Nov 2011, 4:49 pm

    How much longer before the wolves are at the UKs door? Thanks to Browns ruination of the economy we are next in line after Spain for government debt

    I'd give it 3 months

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    papa_umau
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    Re: From bad to worse

    Post by papa_umau on Mon 21 Nov 2011, 12:39 pm

    That shows just how much you know - or rather don't know - about the Eurozone.

    As we are NOT members of the Economic Monetary Union or ( EMU ), we are not caught in the same set of circumstances as those states that are.

    That is why your so-called "wolves" will not be able to get to the UK door.

    Anyway, Cameron and his Lib-Dem stooges have already hit us hard enough with their "austerity-measures" so that we are well past the levels of such draconian cuts that the Spanish or the Italian or Portuguese or Greek people are on the streets complaining about.

    Please try to keep up will you or you will never understand what is going on in Europe.


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    Re: From bad to worse

    Post by Guest on Tue 22 Nov 2011, 7:32 pm

    What has government debt to do with EMU?

    The UK is next in line of the european economies and is very accessible to the wolves ie the speculator and banker friends.

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