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    The National Health Service, and British taxes ?

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    The National Health Service, and British taxes ?

    Post by Parliament.... on Sat 24 Sep 2011, 2:28 pm

    I have just been listeting to BBC radio and Any Questions. The issue was based on The National Health Service.

    When are our politicisns going to admit that The National Health Service has been underfunded since the 80's ?, and when are the British people going to realise it ?

    I feel very strongly that our leading policians have convinced the British public that they are being over taxed due to among other things, council tax increases, but other things come into play here re- the British who struggle to pay their rents and mortgages, so the last thing the Brit's need is higher income tax.

    Yet this is exactly what is need in this country, because we psy the lowest income tax rates compared to the EU.

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    Re: The National Health Service, and British taxes ?

    Post by Guest on Sun 25 Sep 2011, 4:10 am

    So you listen to the BBC and are now an expert eh?

    I am a regular user of the NHS and can assure you that it is overmanned and grossly inefficient. The scandal is that all discussion has been hijacked by the left and as a result little change is to be expected in order that all these people get to keep their jobs and bloated pensions whilst the poor old taxpayer has to work ever harder just to maintain his living standards.

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    Re: The National Health Service, and British taxes ?

    Post by papa_umau on Sun 25 Sep 2011, 1:22 pm

    I will not get into the argument that the NHS is "overmanned" and "grossly inefficiect" as I just do not know enough about it to make or support that statement.

    I DO know that money is wasted in the NHS and that it is always good to try to make efficiency changes to try to cut out such wastefulness.

    That said I do think that the NHS gets a lot of stick that it does not deserve as the people that are working in the NHS, like the nurses and the doctors, ( not so much the consultants as they are overpaid in my opinion ), are doing a great job with less and less resources because of constant cuts and because of this situation we are seeing more and more being done by less and less people.

    One of the greatest flaws in thr NHS is the policy of employing agency nurses to cover short term shortages of normal staff as these types of nurses are not only not filled with local knowledge but they are VERY expensive to employ.


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    Re: The National Health Service, and British taxes ?

    Post by Parliament.... on Sun 25 Sep 2011, 3:51 pm

    papa_umau wrote:I will not get into the argument that the NHS is "overmanned" and "grossly inefficiect" as I just do not know enough about it to make or support that statement.

    I DO know that money is wasted in the NHS and that it is always good to try to make efficiency changes to try to cut out such wastefulness.

    That said I do think that the NHS gets a lot of stick that it does not deserve as the people that are working in the NHS, like the nurses and the doctors, ( not so much the consultants as they are overpaid in my opinion ), are doing a great job with less and less resources because of constant cuts and because of this situation we are seeing more and more being done by less and less people.

    One of the greatest flaws in thr NHS is the policy of employing agency nurses to cover short term shortages of normal staff as these types of nurses are not only not filled with local knowledge but they are VERY expensive to employ.

    Pap, the NHS has been grossly underfunded since the 80's via what is known as "right wing low income tax trickle down economics", and this is because we keep electing right wing government's who get into power based on low income tax.

    The managers should all be sacked, the NHS should be re- nationalised, and the matron returned.

    Savings and cost effectiveness has been the straw that broke the camels back for 30 years.

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    Re: The National Health Service, and British taxes ?

    Post by Hell's Granny on Sun 25 Sep 2011, 4:38 pm

    Having been a nurse, and seeing what happened when the NHS brought business managers in, resulting in it becoming top heavy with bean counters, comfortable offices, carpeted corridors, etc., whilst at the same time cutting the front line staff of nurses, porters, outsourcing the housekeeping such as laundry and cleaning services, I'm really not surprised that the Service is in a mess.

    Having cut ward staff to the bone, they have caused much of the problems with poor hygeine, because hospital cleaning is a specialist thing, ordinary cleaners don't understand the risks of short-cuts in cleaning to patients recovering from surgery.

    Many hospitals have outsourced Catering, again it is wrong because of all the special diets needed by various patients.

    On the whole, although the Government of the day authorised the bean counters, it is the bean counters themselves who have brought the Service to it's knees.

    Cheers HG

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    Re: The National Health Service, and British taxes ?

    Post by Parliament.... on Sun 25 Sep 2011, 4:43 pm

    Hell's Granny wrote:Having been a nurse, and seeing what happened when the NHS brought business managers in, resulting in it becoming top heavy with bean counters, comfortable offices, carpeted corridors, etc., whilst at the same time cutting the front line staff of nurses, porters, outsourcing the housekeeping such as laundry and cleaning services, I'm really not surprised that the Service is in a mess.

    Having cut ward staff to the bone, they have caused much of the problems with poor hygeine, because hospital cleaning is a specialist thing, ordinary cleaners don't understand the risks of short-cuts in cleaning to patients recovering from surgery.

    Many hospitals have outsourced Catering, again it is wrong because of all the special diets needed by various patients.

    On the whole, although the Government of the day authorised the bean counters, it is the bean counters themselves who have brought the Service to it's knees.

    Cheers HG

    Privatisation by stealth since the 80's has brought the health service to it's kneese.
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    Re: The National Health Service, and British taxes ?

    Post by papa_umau on Mon 26 Sep 2011, 12:00 pm

    I have to agree totally with both of you as - as you say HG - our wonderful NHS, ( previously envied by millions of people abroad - including America BTW ), has been mucked about by so many politicians - of ALL flavours - that it is now only a shadow of it's former self.

    If Cameron and his ghouls are allowed to finish what Thatcher started we will see this vital NATIONAL health service turned into a two-tier system with the poorest patients getting the worst treatment at the bottom and the richest ones, or the ones that can afford high-levels of extra medical insurance, getting the best and most expensive treatment. At this point our health service will be no better than the one that is available across the Atlantic.


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    Re: The National Health Service, and British taxes ?

    Post by Guest on Thu 06 Oct 2011, 7:29 am

    The first thing to do is to stop using the NHS as a political football. Simply stating it has been 'grossly underfunded since the 80s' doesn't make that true nor is it being 'privatised by stealth'. Each case is different and should be looked at on its merits. We are currently seeing the results of Brown's spending boom where new and refurbished hospitals are opening without the money to pay for them. This leads to cuts in patient care levels to pay the mortgage (and before you start into another of your political tirades Paps, this time against PFI's, for once in your life try to understand the difference between capital expenditure (new hospitals) and mortgage payments (PFI's) ).

    If you buy a bigger newer house and move into it without an increase in income, you will go bust too.

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    Re: The National Health Service, and British taxes ?

    Post by Parliament.... on Thu 06 Oct 2011, 10:45 am

    Clapco wrote:The first thing to do is to stop using the NHS as a political football. Simply stating it has been 'grossly underfunded since the 80s' doesn't make that true nor is it being 'privatised by stealth'. Each case is different and should be looked at on its merits. We are currently seeing the results of Brown's spending boom where new and refurbished hospitals are opening without the money to pay for them. This leads to cuts in patient care levels to pay the mortgage (and before you start into another of your political tirades Paps, this time against PFI's, for once in your life try to understand the difference between capital expenditure (new hospitals) and mortgage payments (PFI's) ).

    If you buy a bigger newer house and move into it without an increase in income, you will go bust too.

    CC

    The NHS began being privitalised by Margaret Thatcher from 1979, and PFI's were originally introduced by John Major from 1992 when he became Tory PM.

    The NHS has been treated as a political football since cthe 80's because the Tories never believed in it's concept, they prefere private health care, which as we all know is totally inadaquate for the poor.
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    Re: The National Health Service, and British taxes ?

    Post by papa_umau on Thu 06 Oct 2011, 11:37 am

    Clapco wrote:The first thing to do is to stop using the NHS as a political football. Simply stating it has been 'grossly underfunded since the 80s' doesn't make that true nor is it being 'privatised by stealth'. Each case is different and should be looked at on its merits. We are currently seeing the results of Brown's spending boom where new and refurbished hospitals are opening without the money to pay for them. This leads to cuts in patient care levels to pay the mortgage (and before you start into another of your political tirades Paps, this time against PFI's, for once in your life try to understand the difference between capital expenditure (new hospitals) and mortgage payments (PFI's) ).

    If you buy a bigger newer house and move into it without an increase in income, you will go bust too.

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    Sorry Clapco, but sometimes you sound as if you are talking from behind dogma too as there is NO DOUBT that the NHS has been suffering many cuts, including staffing cuts until there is now not nearly the same number of nurses available to each ward than used to be. As HG says, during Thatcher's days of the attempted serious privatisation of the NHS the numbers of non-clinical managers rose three-fold and the number of nurses and doctors dropped markedly. Therefore your "overstaffing of the NHS" was in one way inaccurate as the overstaffing was in non-clinical bean-counters and was in another way simply WRONG as government after government have been trying - since Thatcher - to cut down on the NHS clinical-staff wage-bill.

    There is another way where you are VERY WRONG and that is concerning the "new hospitals built by Gordon Brown" as yes there WERE new hospitals build, ( that were actually essential to the modernisation of the NHS ), but these hospitals were not built using public cash, they were in fact built via the very-expensive-in-the-long-run PFI system where they were built and maintained by the private sector on the cheap - up front - and yet we will be paying through the nose for these hospitals for the next forty years or so.

    You keep hammering Ivanhoe for his "dogmatic" left wing stance and yet it is patently obvious that you are just as bad as you think he is when you take the other direction and spout extremely biased right-wing rhetoric.


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    Re: The National Health Service, and British taxes ?

    Post by Guest on Thu 06 Oct 2011, 2:14 pm

    And your evidence is?

    I regularly go to hospitals and have nursed several relatives through illness and even death so I feel I can comment having spoken to many of the people as well. You are right there are too many administrators but there are too many others wandering around without any real jobs to do trying to care for people. I have had visits from two different departments for the same thing. One patient comes under different tiers of care etc. All duplicating each others functions. Nurses turn up without appointments - what would happen if I missed an appointment? Why have three different people doing three different jobs in a ward when one could do it properly?

    As to PFI, yours is the dogma. Like I say when you understand the difference between mortgage payments for something you didnt ask for and running costs we can have a dialogue. Until then my friend as Andrew Sachs would say 'You know nothing!'

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    Re: The National Health Service, and British taxes ?

    Post by papa_umau on Fri 07 Oct 2011, 1:02 pm

    All you have to do to get that evidence - if you are REALLY interested - is to talk to some REAL nurses or ex-nurses like our very own Hell's Grannie and then you will find out the truth.

    I think that you will find that the vast majority of those that are "wandering about" in hospitals are either patients, patients visitors or some of Cameron's "Big Society" volunteers that do the work without payment. This valuable volunteer-sector has been at work in hospitals and hospices and homes for many years and long before Cameron even thought about it as a way to do the job "on the cheap".

    And finally... you say to me that "you know nothing", but at least I can say that my mind is open for knowing what is actually happening and does not work based on some hoary old ideal that is in turn based on right-wing extremist dogma.

    Every time you talk here and I see you berating your own class philosophies you remind me of my late father-in-law who was exactly like you as he too was a traitor to his class as he took the snobbish line that he spouted as his way to be superior to everybody around him. That, my friend, is living in cloud cuckoo land as at every chance the real "overlords" will drop you in it and use you in any and every way that they can to their own ends.

    Believe it when I say that...."You are not one of them and you never will be, so stop kidding yourself on" !


    Last edited by papa_umau on Sun 09 Oct 2011, 11:45 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: The National Health Service, and British taxes ?

    Post by Guest on Sun 09 Oct 2011, 9:55 am

    I went in to collect a patient from A&E yesterday at 6am.

    The department was empty of patients yet the flashing sign still said '3 hour wait'. At the nurses station were 7 or 8 people talking about their holiday experiences nights out etc etc completely ignoring me. Eventually I asked a member of staff (who actually seemed to be working) who I needed to speak to to collect the patient. Someone's name was called out, another nurse looked at me, told me the bay number, and I was expected to collect my patient who is severely disabled ON MY OWN.

    Now you may argue from behind you rose tinted spectacles that this was shift change, or not representative of 'all' hospitals. I put it to you that it is representative and lazy selfish staff are as much to blame for the state of the NHS as 'Tory cuts'.

    Now you give me some examples?

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    Re: The National Health Service, and British taxes ?

    Post by papa_umau on Sun 09 Oct 2011, 12:02 pm

    Clapco.....

    I don't plan on giving you ANY examples for the exact reason you admitted yourself. That being that what goes on in one hospital is NOT representative of any of the others.

    All hospitals and surgeries - even in the private sector, which it sounds as if you prefer - have different ways of actually doing things and it is true that from an outsiders point of view we can often see things that do not seem right to us.

    That "waiting sign", for example, is something that is programmed by people who change the computer input that displays it only when they are told to. Many hospitals set the input for these displays to the busiest times and they simply do not have the time or the inclination or the ability to keep changing them every day and every time they have an unusual time-space as far as patient bookings is concerned.

    The time that is initialy set on that sign is set to suit the number of doctors and nurses and consultants that are on duty when things are running at normal/average speed. If everybody that is booked for an appointment actually turns up then the time will be right but if any number of patients don't bother to turn up - which often happens - then there will be gaps in the planned cover for the time allocated to each patient.

    As far as walk-in departments are concerned, ( like A & E for example ), any one who knows anything about A & E knows that it normally runs somewhere between madness and hanging about, depending on the time of day and week and on how many patients actually turn up at the time.

    In other words....what you have seen as an outsider is what you are seeing to your untrained eye. It is NOT the full picture of what goes on in a hospital at all times of the day or week.

    Someone once said that "a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing" and it looks as if that saying was specifically invented just for you.


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    Re: The National Health Service, and British taxes ?

    Post by Guest on Sun 09 Oct 2011, 12:09 pm

    Lol Paps - you are able to generalise about things when it suits you though.

    Some people can dish it out but they just cant take it.

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    Re: The National Health Service, and British taxes ?

    Post by papa_umau on Sun 09 Oct 2011, 12:19 pm

    IF you had any measure of sentience you would know that in such things we HAVE TO "generalise" as most hospitals and surgeries are run differently because we just do not have any kind of curriculum with which to run them by.

    Obviously, it WOULD be better to have all of them run the same way but doctors and nurses and consultants and even the non-clinical managers - that Thatcher trebled during her reign - are only human beings, and we all know how flawed they can be.

    It is patently silly to see one hospital or surgery doing something one way and to expect all of the others to do it that way too.


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    Re: The National Health Service, and British taxes ?

    Post by Guest on Sun 09 Oct 2011, 12:26 pm

    WTF? Thatcher? that was 20 years ago!!!!!

    You are patently silly my friend - if something works, praise it, support it, improve it and encourage it but do not impose upon it a different regime from central office in the name of some latest dogma.

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    Re: The National Health Service, and British taxes ?

    Post by Parliament.... on Sun 09 Oct 2011, 12:35 pm

    papa_umau wrote:IF you had any measure of sentience you would know that in such things we HAVE TO "generalise" as most hospitals and surgeries are run differently because we just do not have any kind of curriculum with which to run them by.

    Obviously, it WOULD be better to have all of them run the same way but doctors and nurses and consultants and even the non-clinical managers - that Thatcher trebled during her reign - are only human beings, and we all know how flawed they can be.

    It is patently silly to see one hospital or surgery doing something one way and to expect all of the others to do it that way too.

    I think you have a wind up merchant here Pap.
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    Re: The National Health Service, and British taxes ?

    Post by papa_umau on Sun 09 Oct 2011, 12:37 pm

    Clapco.....

    Maybe your memory is too shallow to remember the time when Thatcher attempted to privatise the NHS during her abortive reign, but I do. She opened up the NHS to the so-called "free-market economy" and by doing so she forced the people who run the then NHS to employ many thousands of bean-counters instead of clinical staff and we are STILL left with this legacy today.

    Yes mate, it is good to remember what has went before, especially if it is still effecting us today.

    Just stick with this forum and you will get the education that you sadly need !

    And yes Ivanhoe I think you are right that our Clapco is just here to stir up invective.


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    Re: The National Health Service, and British taxes ?

    Post by Parliament.... on Sun 09 Oct 2011, 12:45 pm

    papa_umau wrote:Clapco.....

    Maybe your memory is too shallow to remember the time when Thatcher attempted to privatise the NHS during her abortive reign, but I do. She opened up the NHS to the so-called "free-market economy" and by doing so she forced the people who run the then NHS to employ many thousands of bean-counters instead of clinical staff and we are STILL left with this legacy today.

    Yes mate, it is good to remember what has went before, especially if it is still effecting us today.

    Just stick with this forum and you will get the education that you sadly need !

    And yes Ivanhoe I think you are right that our Clapco is just here to stir up invective.

    The man's a fool.

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    Re: The National Health Service, and British taxes ?

    Post by Guest on Sun 09 Oct 2011, 1:18 pm

    Think of me as your conscience. Every time you make a foolish claim I will be there to point out the error of your logic.

    13 years of Labour government have intervened since her not to mention 7 years of Major Conservative. Scaremongering to cover up the ineptitude of your own party politics is just that - scaremongering. You have not given me a single example of what you are talking about so I can only conclude you and your yes-man are waffling about something from the viewpoint of your PC screen NOT real life.

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    Re: The National Health Service, and British taxes ?

    Post by Parliament.... on Sun 09 Oct 2011, 1:28 pm

    Clapco wrote:Think of me as your conscience. Every time you make a foolish claim I will be there to point out the error of your logic.

    13 years of Labour government have intervened since her not to mention 7 years of Major Conservative. Scaremongering to cover up the ineptitude of your own party politics is just that - scaremongering. You have not given me a single example of what you are talking about so I can only conclude you and your yes-man are waffling about something from the viewpoint of your PC screen NOT real life.

    CC

    //Think of me as your conscience////

    Oh god the man's off again. Definitely a wind up.
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    Re: The National Health Service, and British taxes ?

    Post by papa_umau on Mon 10 Oct 2011, 12:31 pm

    Yes Ivanhoe, I agree, and for that reason I think that we should stop reacting to his trollist garbage.


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    Re: The National Health Service, and British taxes ?

    Post by Parliament.... on Mon 10 Oct 2011, 12:41 pm

    papa_umau wrote:Yes Ivanhoe, I agree, and for that reason I think that we should stop reacting to his trollist garbage.

    Agreed.

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