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    Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

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    Hell's Granny
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    Re: Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by Hell's Granny on Sun 25 Sep 2011, 4:44 pm

    Clapco,

    'Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it'.

    Cheers, HG

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    Re: Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by Parliament.... on Sun 25 Sep 2011, 11:58 pm

    Hell's Granny wrote:Clapco,

    'Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it'.

    Cheers, HG

    H/G, I dont think he gives a damn.

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    Re: Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by Guest on Thu 06 Oct 2011, 7:32 am

    Slavery is wrong as no financial transaction (or choice) is involved. But I said wage slavery and you mis-quoted me. But then facts never are the strength of the loony left are they?

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    papa_umau
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    Re: Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by papa_umau on Thu 06 Oct 2011, 11:59 am

    Clapco.....

    Ignoring your repeated "loonie left" jibe, as that is simply talking at the level a troll would talk; I have to take issue with your obviously confused thinking whereby you say that firstly is OK to be used and abused by unfair employers so long as they are keeping you on and paying you what they want to pay you, but when workers feel that they have no other recourse to achieve fairness in the workplace than to start well-considered industrial action, you say that they should just take what that employer dishes out and either turn the other cheek and get some more of the same or lie on your back showing your vulnerable underside so that your employer can keep kicking you.

    I mean, now ridiculous is that idea ?

    If the workplace was left to weak individuals like you we would still see children working fifteen hour days and dying from congested lungs before they are thirty and all of the other workers being condemed to a miserable life of poverty in those "dark-satanic mills" of the Victorian workplaces.

    You keep whining on about moving with the times and yet by your stance in this situation you would damn the workers to go straight back to those bad old days before unions started to ensure that employers were forced to pay a decent wage to their starving workers and to make their workplaces a much safer and happier environment within which to spend their working lives.

    Instead of being a traitor to your class - and a bully boy for the management - you should stand up and be counted as a worker so that you could then enjoy the satisfaction that you did your bit for your fellow-workers.


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    Re: Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by Parliament.... on Thu 06 Oct 2011, 12:18 pm

    papa_umau wrote:Clapco.....

    Ignoring your repeated "loonie left" jibe, as that is simply talking at the level a troll would talk; I have to take issue with your obviously confused thinking whereby you say that firstly is OK to be used and abused by unfair employers so long as they are keeping you on and paying you what they want to pay you, but when workers feel that they have no other recourse to achieve fairness in the workplace than to start well-considered industrial action, you say that they should just take what that employer dishes out and either turn the other cheek and get some more of the same or lie on your back showing your vulnerable underside so that your employer can keep kicking you.

    I mean, now ridiculous is that idea ?

    If the workplace was left to weak individuals like you we would still see children working fifteen hour days and dying from congested lungs before they are thirty and all of the other workers being condemed to a miserable life of poverty in those "dark-satanic mills" of the Victorian workplaces.

    You keep whining on about moving with the times and yet by your stance in this situation you would damn the workers to go straight back to those bad old days before unions started to ensure that employers were forced to pay a decent wage to their starving workers and to make their workplaces a much safer and happier environment within which to spend their working lives.

    Instead of being a traitor to your class - and a bully boy for the management - you should stand up and be counted as a worker so that you could then enjoy the satisfaction that you did your bit for your fellow-workers.

    Well said Pap. And I'm not a "loonie lefti".
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    Re: Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by papa_umau on Thu 06 Oct 2011, 12:31 pm

    Neither am I Ivanhoe; I just see fairness in middle-of-the-road socialism ( with a small "s" ), and unfairness in the right-wing selfishness.

    I could quite easily start chucking such epithets about and call Clapco a right-wing Fascist but unlike him I do not believe in throwing such extreme and unfair opinions about.


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    Re: Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by Parliament.... on Thu 06 Oct 2011, 1:02 pm

    papa_umau wrote:Neither am I Ivanhoe; I just see fairness in middle-of-the-road socialism ( with a small "s" ), and unfairness in the right-wing selfishness.

    I could quite easily start chucking such epithets about and call Clapco a right-wing Fascist but unlike him I do not believe in throwing such extreme and unfair opinions about.

    Pap, I quite agree, it would be so unfair to actually and literally refere to Clapco as a right- wing Fascist. The gentleman that I am, would most certainly not approve.

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    Re: Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by Guest on Thu 06 Oct 2011, 2:24 pm

    papa_umau wrote:Clapco.....

    Ignoring your repeated "loonie left" jibe, as that is simply talking at the level a troll would talk; I have to take issue with your obviously confused thinking whereby you say that firstly is OK to be used and abused by unfair employers so long as they are keeping you on and paying you what they want to pay you, but when workers feel that they have no other recourse to achieve fairness in the workplace than to start well-considered industrial action, you say that they should just take what that employer dishes out and either turn the other cheek and get some more of the same or lie on your back showing your vulnerable underside so that your employer can keep kicking you.

    I mean, now ridiculous is that idea ?

    If the workplace was left to weak individuals like you we would still see children working fifteen hour days and dying from congested lungs before they are thirty and all of the other workers being condemed to a miserable life of poverty in those "dark-satanic mills" of the Victorian workplaces.

    You keep whining on about moving with the times and yet by your stance in this situation you would damn the workers to go straight back to those bad old days before unions started to ensure that employers were forced to pay a decent wage to their starving workers and to make their workplaces a much safer and happier environment within which to spend their working lives.

    Instead of being a traitor to your class - and a bully boy for the management - you should stand up and be counted as a worker so that you could then enjoy the satisfaction that you did your bit for your fellow-workers.


    That wasn't what I said at all. I said you can take it or leave it. If you don't like it or think you are worth more then go out and get more. Give someone who is unemployed the chance to work for what you get.

    As to a return to Victorian working practices I did not suggest that either. It is in everyone's interest to spread the money out so that they get a fair crack of the whip.' I do stand out for the oppressed and have helped introduce unionisation into some workplaces I have been. But I think it wrong that fat cats like Bob Crow earn 6 figure salaries, live in a council house and his members earn 40k a year for doing very little whilst there are 2.5 million unemployed.

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    Re: Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by papa_umau on Fri 07 Oct 2011, 12:37 pm

    CC said:


    Quote:

    "That wasn't what I said at all. I said you can take it or leave it. If you don't like it or think you are worth more then go out and get more. Give someone who is unemployed the chance to work for what you get.

    As to a return to Victorian working practices I did not suggest that either. It is in everyone's interest to spread the money out so that they get a fair crack of the whip.' I do stand out for the oppressed and have helped introduce unionisation into some workplaces I have been. But I think it wrong that fat cats like Bob Crow earn 6 figure salaries, live in a council house and his members earn 40k a year for doing very little whilst there are 2.5 million unemployed".

    CC

    And I say that now you are prevaricating !

    You cannot "take it or leave it" as if you take it you will be abused some more and if you leave it you then have to find employment with some other "benevolent" employer. Believe me Clapco there is no such animal out there as a "benevolent employer" as the wage-bill to every employer is something that has to be reduced at all costs and by any methods that they think they can get away with. ( excuse the pun Mad ).

    Yes you DID suggest a return to "Victorian working practices" as by handing over your unprotected employment rights to any Tom, Dick, or Harry employers you are offering the biggest animals in the pack a chance to bite you in the throat. This action will take you very quickly back to those "dark satanic mills".

    You may have heard the saying that...."There is safety in numbers" and that saying is no more realistic or effective than in the workplace.

    Go into employment on your own and with those naive ideas and see just how quickly you will be picked off by the employers that just love to beat up their workforces by the divide and conquer rule.

    If you DO go into employment with those kinds of vulnerability ideas you will deserve everything you will get afterwards.


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    Re: Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by Guest on Sun 09 Oct 2011, 9:41 am

    It is not 'abuse' if I accept it - you show the paucity of your thinking by even suggesting so.

    As to benevolent employers - the world abounds with them. You are just preaching the politics of extremism again as usual. Yes there are bad employers but not all employers behave as you suggest. You really should have paid attention to the teacher during your history lessons at school - eg social housing was first provided by benevolent employers as it was in their interests to have a happy workforce. So no, I don't believe you - clearly you lack a great deal of real world experience and your opinion is fuelled by your own personal bitterness to be avoided at all costs.

    And NO, you inserted the phrase 'Victorian working practices' from your own imagination - not mine. Interesting too that you reject the period when Scotland was one of the wealthiest countries in the world.

    I put it to you that your kind of thinking is 'A fair days pay for as little work as possible' and is the root cause of all the conflict in industry today. Would be nice to think that you have run a successful company employing people - bit you haven't have you?

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    Re: Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by papa_umau on Sun 09 Oct 2011, 12:59 pm


    Clapco said and I quote:

    It is not 'abuse' if I accept it

    And I say it is not abuse if you do not recognise it as such.

    There are many millions of mugs in this country that are willing to allow themselves to be used and abused by people more powerful than themselves and this syndrome just helps to allow the abuses to continue.

    Get wise and stand up for yourself because if you don't they will ALWAYS abuse you !



    Last edited by papa_umau on Sun 09 Oct 2011, 1:09 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by Parliament.... on Sun 09 Oct 2011, 1:05 pm

    papa_umau wrote:

    Clapco said and I quote:

    It is not 'abuse' if I accept it

    And I say it is not abuse if you do not recognise as such.

    There are many millions of mugs in this country that are willing to allow themselves to be used and abused by people more powerful than themselves and this syndrome just helps to allow the abuses to continue.

    Get wise and stand up for yourself because if you don't they will ALWAYS abuse you !


    Pap, the bottom line is that we British have an acceptance culture, we are a nation of bowers and scrapers.
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    Re: Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by papa_umau on Sun 09 Oct 2011, 1:12 pm

    AGAIN....I will not accept that we are all like that, even if a great number are.

    We ARE getting educated and this media we are using here can takes the thanks for this "education".


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    Re: Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by Parliament.... on Sun 09 Oct 2011, 1:14 pm

    papa_umau wrote:AGAIN....I will not accept that we are all like that, even if a great number are.

    We ARE getting educated and this media we are using here can takes the thanks for this "education".

    I am sorry Pap, but the majority of British people are indeed like this.
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    Re: Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by papa_umau on Sun 09 Oct 2011, 1:21 pm

    I think that the laid back Brits are capable of resistance if it comes up their humps. There are MANY historical examples of this if you care to look for them.

    What needs to happen is that the people need to "resist" en-mass and that is a very hard thing to see happening as we ARE - in the main - very insular in our needs.

    Maybe the planned mass strikes that are coming will be the catalyist that is needed to bring this abortive government down.

    I guess we shall see.


    Last edited by papa_umau on Mon 10 Oct 2011, 12:35 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by Parliament.... on Sun 09 Oct 2011, 1:25 pm

    papa_umau wrote:I think that the laid back Brits are capable of resistance if it comes up their humps. There are MANY historical examples of this if you care to look for them.

    What needs to happen is that the people need to "resist" en-mass and that is a very hard thing to see happening as we ARE - in the main - very insular in our needs.

    Maybe the planned mass strikes that are coming will be the catalyist that is needed to bring this abortive government down.

    I guess we sall see.

    No outside forces will bring this coalition down. I feel whatever happens to achieve this momentum, will come from the inside.
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    Re: Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by papa_umau on Mon 10 Oct 2011, 12:41 pm

    I agree, but I also believe that the "outside forces" can influence what goes on in the hallowed halls of Westminster.

    They DO in fact listen even although they may try to kid us on that they don't.

    I think you would be quite surprised just how many back-room workers spend long hours looking at stuff that has been flagged up online so that they can advise their bosses what is going on with public opinion.

    WE...are a part of that "public opinion" and as such we should ensure that our thoughts and wishes are repeated and repeated until they do "get it".


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    Re: Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by Parliament.... on Mon 10 Oct 2011, 12:58 pm

    papa_umau wrote:I agree, but I also believe that the "outside forces" can influence what goes on in the hallowed halls of Westminster.

    They DO in fact listen even although they may try to kid us on that they don't.

    I think you would be quite surprised just how many back-room workers spend long hours looking at stuff that has been flagged up online so that they can advise their bosses what is going on with public opinion.

    WE...are a part of that "public opinion" and as such we should ensure that our thoughts and wishes are repeated and repeated until they do "get it".

    //until they do "get it"///

    Ideoligies never change.
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    Re: Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by papa_umau on Mon 10 Oct 2011, 1:24 pm

    While that is basically true I think that self-interest will force these people to pay attention to public opinion as if they don't THEY KNOW that this blindness and deafness will eventually lead to their demise.

    I think that the human desire for self-protection will always come to the fore here.


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    Re: Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by Parliament.... on Mon 10 Oct 2011, 1:26 pm

    papa_umau wrote:While that is basically true I think that self-interest will force these people to pay attention to public opinion as if they don't THEY KNOW that this blindness and deafness will eventually lead to their demise.

    I think that the human desire for self-protection will always come to the fore here.

    I hope your right Pap.

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