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    Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

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    Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by Parliament.... on Mon 05 Sep 2011, 11:04 am

    Britain is a devided nation both socially and economically.

    Thatcher created a rich and poor devide, Blair and Brown continued it. As a result we have the rich, the middle classes, the underclass.

    Millions are indeed disenfranchised from the system with nobody in power speaking up for them.

    As a result less and less people are voting.

    So there can be no democracy unless there is participation.

    Yes, or no ?
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    Re: Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by papa_umau on Mon 05 Sep 2011, 11:49 am

    I don't think that anyone that is aware could disagree with that premise.

    Mind you, I think that that "divide" has existed and was growing long before Thatcher came on the scene and is still continuing now, well after Thatcher's political demise.

    There is absolutely no doubt that many Brits now feel disenfranchised from the system and I think that the recent riots in London and up North highlighted this feeling very well.

    Having said that I think that the middle classes are now feeling much closer to the working classes than they have ever felt before as they now feel that successive governments have squeezed their incomes harder than they have ever been squeezed before.

    Governments know that the greatest amount of treasury income comes from the ones that are high in numbers and are earning decent money and that is why this demographic now feel seriously put upon.

    Of course as the lower end of the income scales have less money left to take in tax this particular demographic are just left to struggle along at the bottom surviving from hand to mouth. This is also not a good situation and is probably why this group feels that government does not give a damn about them either.

    I think it will take a serious turn around in financial fortunes of the middle and the bottom classes for these people to ever trust ANY government or political process again.


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    Re: Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by Parliament.... on Mon 05 Sep 2011, 11:59 am

    papa_umau wrote:I don't think that anyone that is aware could disagree with that premise.

    Mind you, I think that that "divide" has existed and was growing long before Thatcher came on the scene and is still continuing now, well after Thatcher's political demise.

    There is absolutely no doubt that many Brits now feel disenfranchised from the system and I think that the recent riots in London and up North highlighted this feeling very well.

    Having said that I think that the middle classes are now feeling much closer to the working classes than they have ever felt before as they now feel that successive governments have squeezed their incomes harder than they have ever been squeezed before.

    Governments know that the greatest amount of treasury income comes from the ones that are high in numbers and are earning decent money and that is why this demographic now feel seriously put upon.

    Of course as the lower end of the income scales have less money left to take in tax this particular demographic are just left to struggle along at the bottom surviving from hand to mouth. This is also not a good situation and is probably why this group feels that government does not give a damn about them either.

    I think it will take a serious turn around in financial fortunes of the middle and the bottom classes for these people to ever trust ANY government or political process again.

    Pap, Somehow, I'm going to say, Thatcher's middle classes, have been brainwashed into thinking that they are immune from needing NHS care. From needing to travel on the Railways. From educating their children in State schools. From ever needing the safety net of the Welfare State.

    Because Thatcher's middle classes do not want to pay more income tax, if any at all. What say you ?
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    Re: Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by papa_umau on Mon 05 Sep 2011, 12:19 pm

    As I already said....most of this group of previously-Tory-supporters feel so put upon by the taxman that they are building barriers to the old Tory ways of doing.

    Yes, SOME were "brainwashed" by Thatcher's elitist rhetoric but even the ones that might have been "programmed" in this way are now turning against Thatcherism. Thatcher is virtually dead and buried and yet you STILL manage to blame her for all of Britain's ills and for why people vote Tory. There are - for certain - a few of these types still left but like the dinosaurs these habitual Tories are now dwindling to very small numbers.

    Don't you think that it is time that you stopped jumping on "bad ole Thacher's" head any more as if you do not, you too are going to be damned into being seen as a dyed-in-the-wool dinosaur too.

    I have always said that we should never forget history as to forget history could lead us to repeat mistakes we have already made in the past. Having said that we also have to live in the "TODAY" if we are ever going to shape a decent future for all.


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    Re: Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by Parliament.... on Mon 05 Sep 2011, 1:19 pm

    papa_umau wrote:I don't think that anyone that is aware could disagree with that premise.

    Mind you, I think that that "divide" has existed and was growing long before Thatcher came on the scene and is still continuing now, well after Thatcher's political demise.

    There is absolutely no doubt that many Brits now feel disenfranchised from the system and I think that the recent riots in London and up North highlighted this feeling very well.

    Having said that I think that the middle classes are now feeling much closer to the working classes than they have ever felt before as they now feel that successive governments have squeezed their incomes harder than they have ever been squeezed before.

    Governments know that the greatest amount of treasury income comes from the ones that are high in numbers and are earning decent money and that is why this demographic now feel seriously put upon.

    Of course as the lower end of the income scales have less money left to take in tax this particular demographic are just left to struggle along at the bottom surviving from hand to mouth. This is also not a good situation and is probably why this group feels that government does not give a damn about them either.

    I think it will take a serious turn around in financial fortunes of the middle and the bottom classes for these people to ever trust ANY government or political process again.

    """Mind you, I think that that "divide" has existed and was growing long before Thatcher came on the scene and is still continuing now, well after Thatcher's political demise"""

    I think before Thatcher came along, we had a much better country, and one of the reasons is becauswe people were more the same with the same problems.

    Today a lot of people lead isolated lives because they are unable to relate to their neighbours and friends. When Thatcher left office, she left behind a rich and poor devide that she had created as a matter of policy.

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    Re: Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by Parliament.... on Mon 05 Sep 2011, 3:51 pm

    papa_umau wrote:As I already said....most of this group of previously-Tory-supporters feel so put upon by the taxman that they are building barriers to the old Tory ways of doing.

    Yes, SOME were "brainwashed" by Thatcher's elitist rhetoric but even the ones that might have been "programmed" in this way are now turning against Thatcherism. Thatcher is virtually dead and buried and yet you STILL manage to blame her for all of Britain's ills and for why people vote Tory. There are - for certain - a few of these types still left but like the dinosaurs these habitual Tories are now dwindling to very small numbers.

    Don't you think that it is time that you stopped jumping on "bad ole Thacher's" head any more as if you do not, you too are going to be damned into being seen as a dyed-in-the-wool dinosaur too.

    I have always said that we should never forget history as to forget history could lead us to repeat mistakes we have already made in the past. Having said that we also have to live in the "TODAY" if we are ever going to shape a decent future for all.

    ""Don't you think that it is time that you stopped jumping on "bad ole Thacher's" head any more as if you do not, you too are going to be damned into being seen as a dyed-in-the-wool dinosaur too""

    No I do not. I believe people who voted for her should never be allowed to forget that they helped create the misery millions still feel today which was created by that monster of a woman.
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    Re: Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by papa_umau on Tue 06 Sep 2011, 12:44 pm

    Sorry mate, but if you still continue to live in the past you will be left there all alone with nobody but yourself to talk to.

    Thatcher's effect on British life - during her hay-day - certainly was profound but as the days go by her effect on British politics is waining and will soon be seen nowhere else other than in the minds of a few hard-liners. ( for, or against ).

    Yes, there are still a few Thatcherites in modern government as her legacy is hard to deny, but I think that even those ones are astute enough to at least try to hide the fact that they are still Thatcherites. Cameron is covertly one of these !

    Even some of the Tories in Scotland are trying to distance themselves from the bad ole Thatcher days as they try to form up a breakaway party up here. The leader of this group, Murdo Fraser, said yesterday that if the Tories want to make any headway in Scotland they are going to have to distance themselves from the old dogma and look at Conservatism in Scotland as a Scottish cause and not just an add-on to the London party requirements.

    He is aware that from an all time low when Scotland did not return even one Tory MP to London, ( there is still only one BTW ), and that out of the 129 MSP's in the new Scottish Parliament there is still only 15 Tories, ( most of which are "list" members, ( Scotland's version of Proportional Representation, which curiously, the Tories have always been against ), and not constituency members )), the Tory party up here needs a whole new ethos if it is ever to catch the imagination of the Scots voters again in the future. ( For our sake I hope this never happens as to the Scots the London Tories are anathema to the needs of the Scottish people and it should be left to stay that way ).

    So, you see, Thatcher is poison to any group in and out of Tory politics and that is why she should be consigned to the rubbish bin of history and allowed to simply wither away. People like yourself who always feel the need to raise her name in bogey-man style are in fact keeping her legacy alive instead of damning it to hell.....where it should be sent.

    Here is a quote from the Dundee Courier, ( A Conservative newspaper ):

    "On Monday, Mid Scotland and Fife MSP Murdo Fraser officially unveiled his "radical" proposal to break away from the UK Conservatives under a new name as part of his leadership bid."

    I really hope he does not succeed as that could make the Tories a dangerous party once again up here !



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    Re: Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by Parliament.... on Wed 07 Sep 2011, 10:55 am

    papa_umau wrote:Sorry mate, but if you still continue to live in the past you will be left there all alone with nobody but yourself to talk to.

    Thatcher's effect on British life - during her hay-day - certainly was profound but as the days go by her effect on British politics is waining and will soon be seen nowhere else other than in the minds of a few hard-liners. ( for, or against ).

    Yes, there are still a few Thatcherites in modern government as her legacy is hard to deny, but I think that even those ones are astute enough to at least try to hide the fact that they are still Thatcherites. Cameron is covertly one of these !

    Even some of the Tories in Scotland are trying to distance themselves from the bad ole Thatcher days as they try to form up a breakaway party up here. The leader of this group, Murdo Fraser, said yesterday that if the Tories want to make any headway in Scotland they are going to have to distance themselves from the old dogma and look at Conservatism in Scotland as a Scottish cause and not just an add-on to the London party requirements.

    He is aware that from an all time low when Scotland did not return even one Tory MP to London, ( there is still only one BTW ), and that out of the 129 MSP's in the new Scottish Parliament there is still only 15 Tories, ( most of which are "list" members, ( Scotland's version of Proportional Representation, which curiously, the Tories have always been against ), and not constituency members )), the Tory party up here needs a whole new ethos if it is ever to catch the imagination of the Scots voters again in the future. ( For our sake I hope this never happens as to the Scots the London Tories are anathema to the needs of the Scottish people and it should be left to stay that way ).

    So, you see, Thatcher is poison to any group in and out of Tory politics and that is why she should be consigned to the rubbish bin of history and allowed to simply wither away. People like yourself who always feel the need to raise her name in bogey-man style are in fact keeping her legacy alive instead of damning it to hell.....where it should be sent.

    Here is a quote from the Dundee Courier, ( A Conservative newspaper ):

    "On Monday, Mid Scotland and Fife MSP Murdo Fraser officially unveiled his "radical" proposal to break away from the UK Conservatives under a new name as part of his leadership bid."

    I really hope he does not succeed as that could make the Tories a dangerous party once again up here !

    ""Sorry mate, but if you still continue to live in the past you will be left there all alone with nobody but yourself to talk to""

    Even you ?



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    Re: Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by papa_umau on Wed 07 Sep 2011, 11:22 am

    You see Ivanhoe, that is what I was talking about in my PM to you. You included your comment in answer to the quotation IN the quotation and that makes it hard to find out what your comment actually is.

    The quotation that you are referring to and the comment to this end must be kept separate or the post just starts to look silly.


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    Re: Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by Parliament.... on Wed 07 Sep 2011, 11:33 am

    papa_umau wrote:You see Ivanhoe, that is what I was talking about in my PM to you. You included your comment in answer to the quotation IN the quotation and that makes it hard to find out what your comment actually is.

    The quotation that you are referring to and the comment to this end must be kept separate or the post just starts to look silly.

    Pap, in the scheme of things, does it really matter ?
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    Re: Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by papa_umau on Thu 08 Sep 2011, 2:10 pm

    YES...in my opinion it does, as clarity in thinking and writing is what makes the difference between muddied communications and getting your point across.

    I have to tell you that I failed my English exams on leaving school and I have been working hard to make up for that failure all of my life. I think that now - although my writing is STILL not perfect - I CAN get my thoughts across clearly and without ambiguity when I try to.

    To me, that is vitally important.


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    Re: Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by Guest on Thu 08 Sep 2011, 8:19 pm

    Nice to see you defend the great one from the ignorant Paps....

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    Re: Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by papa_umau on Fri 09 Sep 2011, 1:19 pm

    And who - in your estimation - is "the great one" Clapco ?

    ME ?....surely not ! pirat

    Anyway...how about some more of your considered thoughts instead of just insulting-to-Ivanhoe one-liners.

    Surely you have more to say on ROB than that ?


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    Re: Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by Hell's Granny on Sat 10 Sep 2011, 11:45 am

    Even in Ted 'the teeth' Heath's era, things were starting to slide, the Maggon just picked it up and ran with it!

    I was against the wholesale privatisation of our industries, and the conversion of the majority of Building Societies to banks. I had a feeling that it would not be a good thing along the line, and now the birds have come home to roost with a vengeance.

    Although I dislike Maggie intensely, she has gone, although her legacy is still with us.

    Cheers, HG

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    Re: Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by Parliament.... on Sat 10 Sep 2011, 12:22 pm

    Hell's Granny wrote:Even in Ted 'the teeth' Heath's era, things were starting to slide, the Maggon just picked it up and ran with it!

    I was against the wholesale privatisation of our industries, and the conversion of the majority of Building Societies to banks. I had a feeling that it would not be a good thing along the line, and now the birds have come home to roost with a vengeance.

    Although I dislike Maggie intensely, she has gone, although her legacy is still with us.

    Cheers, HG

    ""Although I dislike Maggie intensely, she has gone, (((although her legacy is still with us""))))

    Precisly HG.
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    Re: Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by papa_umau on Sat 10 Sep 2011, 12:40 pm

    Yes, her "legacy IS still with us"; and I have never tried to deny that.

    What I have been trying to say until I am black in the face is that even with this "legacy" in mind we have to move on and not dwell too long on what that lady did to Britain, and especially to my own Scotland, in her hay-days.

    She IS gone and we must now move on while we remember to keep a close eye on the few remaining followers of her dogma that would keep her memory alive.

    Every time her name is mentioned our memories flood back to her days of destruction and it is about time that we stopped giving her memory any place in our future thoughts.


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    Re: Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by Parliament.... on Sat 10 Sep 2011, 12:48 pm

    papa_umau wrote:Yes, her "legacy IS still with us"; and I have never tried to deny that.

    What I have been trying to say until I am black in the face is that even with this "legacy" in mind we have to move on and not dwell too long on what that lady did to Britain, and especially to my own Scotland, in her hay-days.

    She IS gone and we must now move on while we remember to keep a close eye on the few remaining followers of her dogma that would keep her memory alive.

    Every time her name is mentioned our memories flood back to her days of destruction and it is about time that we stopped giving her memory any place in our future thoughts.

    There is an amount of truth in that.
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    Re: Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by Hell's Granny on Thu 15 Sep 2011, 9:25 pm

    Yes, we must move forward, but not forget the disasters of her Premiership.

    We can remember them without her if we try.

    Cheers, HG

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    Re: Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by Guest on Mon 19 Sep 2011, 8:26 pm

    You do realise that nobody takes you seriously while you whinge on about Mrs T?

    Many people fondly remember her and her achievements - I for one would not want a return to the previous government with roads unsalted, bodies piling up in cemetaries, loans from IMF, 3 month waiting lists for telephone lines, 97% tax rates......

    Get a life. Please. Your forum should look forward not backward. We are where we are - lets move on.

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    Re: Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by Parliament.... on Mon 19 Sep 2011, 10:11 pm

    Clapco wrote:You do realise that nobody takes you seriously while you whinge on about Mrs T?

    Many people fondly remember her and her achievements - I for one would not want a return to the previous government with roads unsalted, bodies piling up in cemetaries, loans from IMF, 3 month waiting lists for telephone lines, 97% tax rates......

    Get a life. Please. Your forum should look forward not backward. We are where we are - lets move on.

    CC

    Oh yes of course, we should all bow and scrape to our Tory masters, we must all know our place and not dare demand fair wages and conditions in 21st century Britain.

    We are where we are, because of backward thinking people like you.

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    Re: Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by Guest on Tue 20 Sep 2011, 7:13 am

    You are where you are because of thinking like this.

    If someone pays me a decent wage to bow and scrape that isn't a problem. I don't care what political affiliation they are! If they aren't what I consider fair I go elsewhere not throw my toys out the pram and go on strike.

    There is a saying - don't bite the hand that feeds. 2.5 million unemployed are the result of generations that have.

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    Re: Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by papa_umau on Tue 20 Sep 2011, 11:32 am

    Clapco wrote:You are where you are because of thinking like this.

    If someone pays me a decent wage to bow and scrape that isn't a problem. I don't care what political affiliation they are! If they aren't what I consider fair I go elsewhere not throw my toys out the pram and go on strike.

    There is a saying - don't bite the hand that feeds. 2.5 million unemployed are the result of generations that have.

    CC

    Firstly, if you are attacking this forum for it's open views of life in Britain then I will just have to accept your interpretation as your opinion and leave it at that. I will say though that when I created this forum I made it so that it could be aplace to dicuss ALL types of consumerism subjects including politics and while I know that we will get many different interpretations of what is right and how to do things the main ethos of this forumm is self-help and the option to get worries off the chests of the readers and writers to ROB.

    NOW....You said, and I again specifically quote:

    "If someone pays me a decent wage to bow and scrape that isn't a problem."


    And that just suggests to me that if you are paid what you think you are worth, ( which seldom happens BTW ), you would be happy to do anything for that pay and that includes bowing and scraping and acting subservient to your master. At least that is what it sounds like to me.

    If all of Britains workers were as open for abuse as you seem to be we would still be back in the Victorian days of the work-house, the "dark satanic mills" and being hanged or deported to Botany Bay for stealing a chicken when hungry.

    Yes, in your own words "we have moved on" and that onward movement is with the help of good union support and a Labour-created and maintained and - well-admired BTW - welfare state.


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    Re: Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by Parliament.... on Tue 20 Sep 2011, 12:40 pm

    papa_umau wrote:
    Clapco wrote:You are where you are because of thinking like this.

    If someone pays me a decent wage to bow and scrape that isn't a problem. I don't care what political affiliation they are! If they aren't what I consider fair I go elsewhere not throw my toys out the pram and go on strike.

    There is a saying - don't bite the hand that feeds. 2.5 million unemployed are the result of generations that have.

    CC

    Firstly, if you are attacking this forum for it's open views of life in Britain then I will just have to accept your interpretation as your opinion and leave it at that. I will say though that when I created this forum I made it so that it could be aplace to dicuss ALL types of consumerism subjects including politics and while I know that we will get many different interpretations of what is right and how to do things the main ethos of this forumm is self-help and the option to get worries off the chests of the readers and writers to ROB.

    NOW....You said, and I again specifically quote:

    "If someone pays me a decent wage to bow and scrape that isn't a problem."


    And that just suggests to me that if you are paid what you think you are worth, ( which seldom happens BTW ), you would be happy to do anything for that pay and that includes bowing and scraping and acting subservient to your master. At least that is what it sounds like to me.

    If all of Britains workers were as open for abuse as you seem to be we would still be back in the Victorian days of the work-house, the "dark satanic mills" and being hanged or deported to Botany Bay for stealing a chicken when hungry.

    Yes, in your own words "we have moved on" and that onward movement is with the help of good union support and a Labour-created and maintained and - well-admired BTW - welfare state.

    Nicely put Pap, but our mutual friend is subserviant, he is also full of himself, and so what you say to him will go in one ear and out the other.

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    Re: Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by Guest on Sun 25 Sep 2011, 4:42 am

    Yes Paps that is right - if someone pays me to do something - I do it. If I think the job is worth more then I don't. Why do all you loony lefties think they can run a company better than the management can?

    There is nothing wrong with being a wage slave

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    Re: Democracy in Britain. ???????????????

    Post by papa_umau on Sun 25 Sep 2011, 12:57 pm

    Clapco....

    There is nothing right in being a "slave" to anything or anybody !


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