Greeks Bearing Gifts

Well, in this case not; but nothing aginst the Greeks, they are fine !. The BIG problem is the country finances. Enslaved to the IMF ( in which our dear Gordon Brown would love to be boss of )they are accumulating debt at an alarming rate.

They are in line for another £1 Billion payout to prop up the finances for a WEEK OR TWO !!!. They will need probably some 14 Billion to keep going, but even then ( as growth has slowed ) they are at grave risk of NEVER being able to re-pay their debts. Problem is although we are not in the Euro zone we are pledged to help ( Thanks Gordon ! ), so it may seem that we in the Uk may get tapped again for another £ Billon or so.

However the real worry is that if Greece cannot meet its debts, and within a few months begins to deafault ( as it almost certainly will ) then it may well throw in the towel and reject the Euro. This act may well shed light on the other European countries in plight, mainly Portugal and Irelend. We gave £7 billion to Ireland, and any future bail out would be crippling for us. The big worry is if Spain is the next country to go belly up. The contagion is sure to spread, and as such a number of economists hold out little future for the Euro currency as countries in debt start to ditch it ....Watch this space !!.

As dear old Karl Marx said the revolution will come. By the way Marx was NOT advocating a violent revolution ( ie, disruption and aggression ) he had the forsight to see that Capitalist greed would implode on itself and destroy itself in the long run...I wonder what he would make of the IMF and the muppets at the EU !!!!.


Technician

Yes Techician....A former Foreign Secretary, Jack Straw, said today that Britain should start to prepare for the total collapse of The Euro. He said "The Euro - in it's present form - is suffering a slow death" and "cannot last" much longer. He also said that the UK government should be prepared for it's potential collapse.

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As we are not fully into the European Monetary Union, ( EMU ), it should be reasonable easy for us to manage any fallout from such an event.

Greece is not the only country in the Eurozone that is hurting badly at the moment and because of this widening syndrome we might well see other weaker economies in the EU going the way of Ireland, Greece and even Iceland ( Although Iceland is not part of the EU ).

You are also correct about what - my buddy - Karl Marx said all those years ago. He did see the greed in Capitalism - especially monetarism - forcing a world-wide crash that would bring disaster to all of the countries that embrace such dogmas.

It is also curious that the other extreme, that of Communism, has already done that after it too suffered from such extremist ways of doing. All we are waiting for now is for China to go that way followed closely behind by North Korea.

I am sure that eventually the whole world will turn against extremist dogmas as they will very soon realise that the hard right and the hard left ways only lead to destruction.

WOW....Technician, that IS a big subject !

Hi Technician, you said "enslaved to the IMF" and while you are right about Greece I think that there are many more examples of that than we are made aware of.

Why even Britain has had loans from the IMF even if they were not actually panic loans like Greece's were.

Now many of the members of the EU are lining up for such loans as their economies go down one after another.

Yes mate, it is a very scary time just now for a lot of people in Europe.

Hi All,

Well, thanks for the supportive comments !. I think I go on a bit about the IMF, but it was only after doing research on the issues, and that organisation in paticular, that I developed a healthy dislike. Problem with Greece is that they have lived above their means, but further 'props' from the IMF and the EU band of chums only allows the country to dig a deeper hole.

I think we will just sit back and wait for the riots. The people of the EU are far from happy with the ruling 'Elite' who are hell bent on maintaining the Euro at all cost. They know full well that if Greece does a runner ( and that may be the best thing for her ! ) and ditches the Euro then that contagion will spread. Remember they are not very happy at allowing populations referendums this elite bunch, ( both France and Holland voted against this currency ). Others were bombasted into doing the 'right thing', ie Ireland, and just thank God we did not follow suit.

Cameraon is desperate to avoid us having to fork out any more money ( we are still 'technically' in the s***, and may have to cough up the odd £ Billion ! ), but the Germans are well pissed off at the thought of another massive bale out, despite Mrs Merkel putting a brave face on it. The poor Greeks have not a chance in hell of paying this back ( so our banks will take a hit on the default ), so all in all the country is bankrupt.

However, as I do not wish to be too much of a gloom merchant let us wait and see. I cannot see the Greek poulation being too suited at the thought of massive privatisations, severe and further cuts in public sector pay, massive tax hikes and pension hits. At the end of the day, sun, ruins and ouzo don't pay the bills !. No the EU is on the slide, and this may be the thin edge of the wedge for the Euro. just as Michael Farage said at the celebrations of the Euro's 10th birthday ( Cop this for a laugh: See U Tube and Michael Farage and the Euro, or, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7N8VMJZAVaU )

Don't say I didn't tell you !

Technician

Careful Techs - Brown used the same policies for 13 years and we are nearly bankrupt too

CC

Being a European as well as a Scot and a Brit I have to say that I don't think the idea of a single currency over all of the Eurozone is necessarily a bad thing.

The mechanism that the Euro uses IS flawed and after the dust settles and if the Eurozone does not collapse I think we are going to see this particular machine re-jigged and reformed so that it works better for all of the member states.

I do think that the Euro-haters in the British government have a serious prejudice against the Euro, and the words of Nigel Farage, in that U-Tube clip, ( The leader of the destructive UKIP party ), sound so much like the words of the pound sterling supporters that we have to take what he says with a generous pinch of salt.

Well, I would tend to agree; it all sounds very cosy, but if you like Farage or not he has been dead right so far. The Euro I feel is going to go down the pan, and latest news has put Italian Banks in the firing line as Italy has just had its credit rating reduced.

Of course Greece is a basket case. Tax avoidance, spending like no tommorow, retirement at 50 for many public sector workers and with a pension of 95% of their last years salary....If only. And the muppets in the EU have spent £100,000 on spin to promote a new proposed £28 million headquarters !!. What world are these people in ?.

When are these pro-currency fanatics ( like Tony Blair I may add !!! ) going to realise that this is a busted flush. Sooner or later the whole endevour will collapse. Once you start to have megalithic dictatorships and the voice of the people is being ingnored you will get trouble. As I say, this is far from the end. All of us in the UK face years of lowering living standards, increasing price hikes and less retirement income. Greece is just that little way farther down the line than us, but we need a radical re-think.

The EU is just another excuse to haemorrhage money from the UK. Stop the contributions, get rid of the quango's in the Uk, and tell Von Rumpey to go and stuff himself !

Technician

I agree with every word Tech !
Let's have a referendum .

The EU is large, but old-fashioned, bureaucratic, corrupt and inefficient. It still thinks Government knows best. We learned the hard way that it does not.

Yes guys...I too agree, but I say that instead of scrapping it why not get right in there, ( the Brits I mean ), and FIX IT.

When it was first cobbled together under the Treaty of Rome and other lesser treaties it was a gigantic mess that couldn't fail to eventually fail and now that this monster has had a few years to find out what is wrong with it I say that the idea is basically a good one and that we should simply learn from the mistakes that were made at the beginning and reform this beast so that it can at last become the trading-tiger that it should be.

We have to keep in mind that even although we are not signatories to EMU we do have a massive - our largest - set of trading-partners with Europe as compared with all of our other trading partners in the world. This is something that needs to be protected and strengthened and pulling out of Europe just when it is starting to come together would be a very foolish thing to do.

Many of the Euro-sceptics in Britain are simply British jingoists that are still living in Britain's Imperial past and these people need to realise that we are now just a small island floating in a big ocean while our nearest neighbour - Europe - IS slowly becoming the most powerful trading bloc in the world. We NEED to be part of this trading bloc as if we are not at the heart of this machine we are going to be sunk in the Atlantic by it.

Extract from an article in The Telegraph

These Greek rescue packages, though, are also about trying to save the euro itself. Seeing one or more nations leave would mean admitting the entire structure is a mistake, a triumph of politic hubris over economic logic – which, of course, it is. A Greek exit from the single currency, while encouraging others to leave, would also generate pressure for opt-outs from other EU initiatives, undermining the vast Brussels bureaucracy. An unravelling of the eurozone and its related constructs, then, would make a lot of politicians look stupid while forcing thousands of eurocrats to look for a proper job.

No wonder such denizens are now arguing that we need MORE European integration to save the eurozone, not less. Their attitude reminds me of the Russian ideologues of the early 1980s who insisted, as the Soviet economy collapsed around them, that central planning would work if only the state wielded even more power, and tried even harder to deny reality.

Such delusion stemmed from arrogance, stupidity and an entrenched bureaucracy jealously guarding economic and social privileges paid for by others. Similar motives are behind the determination of those running the eurozone to avoid facing the economic music. Meanwhile, by delaying the inevitable Greek default, possibly to the point where the market takes matters into its own hands, eurozone politicians and mandarins are taking enormous risks not just with Europe, but with the entire global economy.

Hmmmmm interesting Jim !

Who was it that said all that in the Torygraph ?

No matter, I always read what is written in the Telegraph with an enquiring mind as it is easy to get dragged down the rightist thinking paths if one just takes in those words verbatim.

Having said that, I have to admit that there IS a lot that needs fixing in the Eurozone and if Greece has the bottle to pull out - which I don't think for a second it will - there might be a risk of some more member-states following them.

As I said before...."The idea of a United States of Europe is a good one" but like any other new-born baby this cobbled-together bunch of disparate states really need to get even close together in order to beat the Euro-haters at their own game.

The European Union is NOT going to go away any time soon so I say that instead of trying to undermine it we should be using our brains in order to try to FIX IT. Little Britain can not do this as only a part-time, half in and half out, member and that is why I also say that we should get RIGHT IN and start to fix it with the help of Germany and France as equal partners.

Vladimir Bukovsky:
I am referrring to structures, to certain ideologies being instilled, to the plans, the direction, the inevitable expansion, the obliteration of nations, which was the purpose of the Soviet Union. Most people do not understand this. They do not know it, but we do because we were raised in the Soviet Union where we had to study the Soviet ideology in school and at university. The ultimate purpose of the Soviet Union was to create a new historic entity, the Soviet people, all around the globe. The same is true in the EU today. They are trying to create a new people. They call this people “Europeans”, whatever that means.

The European Parliament is elected on the basis of proportional representation, which is not true representation. And what does it vote on? The percentage of fat in yoghurt, that kind of thing. It is ridiculous. It is given the task of the Supreme Soviet. The average MP can speak for six minutes per year in the Chamber. That is not a real parliament.

It is no accident that the European Parliament, for example, reminds me of the Supreme Soviet. It looks like the Supreme Soviet because it was designed like it. Similary, when you look at the European Commission it looks like the Politburo. I mean it does so exactly, except for the fact that the Commission now has 25 members and the Politburo usually had 13 or 15 members. Apart from that they are exactly the same, unaccountable to anyone, not directly elected by anyone at all. When you look into all this bizarre activity of the European Union with its 80,000 pages of regulations it looks like Gosplan. We used to have an organisation which was planning everything in the economy, to the last nut and bolt, five years in advance. Exactly the same thing is happening in the EU. When you look at the type of EU corruption, it is exactly the Soviet type of corruption, going from top to bottom rather than going from bottom to top.

I have no doubt about it. There will be a collapse of the European Union pretty much like the Soviet Union collapsed. But do not forget that when these things collapse they leave such devastation that it takes a generation to recover.

Quoting Vladimir Bukovsky: you said:

I am referrring to structures, to certain ideologies being instilled, to the plans, the direction, the inevitable expansion, the obliteration of nations, which was the purpose of the Soviet Union. Most people do not understand this. They do not know it, but we do because we were raised in the Soviet Union where we had to study the Soviet ideology in school and at university. The ultimate purpose of the Soviet Union was to create a new historic entity, the Soviet people, all around the globe. The same is true in the EU today. They are trying to create a new people. They call this people “Europeans”, whatever that means.

And while I am a confirmed Socialist I am NOT a Communist as Communism has been proven to be far too complicated and disparate in it's philosophies. With Communism floating through Marxism, Leninism and even Stalinism it is not a one-size-fits-all political vision. In fact, as we watch what happened to it in the Soviet states and what will happen to it in China we must know that it is a failed mode of life and just as dangerous and damaging as rabid Capitalism can be.

I also think that even although Mr Bukovski is obviously a very intelligent and thinking person I believe that he too has been dragged into the promises that Communism has failed to deliver.

I DO NOT agree that we or anybody else can analogise the European Union with the Soviet Union as they are/were poles apart in their philosophies. The member states in the Soviet Union were CONQUERED and PRESS-GANGED into becoming members and were held in an iron fist while the Soviet Union existed. The European Union is a set of states that have CHOSEN to be so and together they hope to become part of a voluntary group of trading and commonwealth partners that will eventually compete with the trading-tigers of the middle and far East, not to mention the Americas.

We need to be an active and equal member as part of that group !

I DO agree that as the EU starts to sort itself out there will be stronger member-states and there will be weaker member-states and at the outset it will be the stronger member-states that will rule the roost. While Britain is one of the stronger member states, as is Germany and France and maybe Spain, it is not yet fully in a position to shape any potential United States of Europe. To be able to do this Britain needs to make a full committment to Europe and then it needs to work at fixing the EU's problems FROM THE INSIDE and not while sniping from the perifery.

I am holidaying in my house in Italy next week .Probably for a month or two .Will not be posting for a while . In the meantime ,I will leave you with these thoughts.
The EU or "Big brother" is gradually eroding our democracy.
Perhaps Technician will post his thoughts ?


“Illiberal ideas are becoming to be formulated, spread and preached under the name of ideologies or “isms”, which have – at least formally and nominally – nothing in common with the old-style, explicit socialism. These ideas are, however, in many respects similar to it. There is always a limiting (or constraining) of human freedom, there is always ambitious social engineering, there is always an immodest ‘enforcement of a good’ by those who are anointed on others against their will, there is always the crowding out of standard democratic methods by alternative political procedures, and there is always the feeling of superiority of intellectuals and of their ambitions.”

Hi All,

Yes, I shall post my thoughts. Very interesting Jim, a bit radical, but to the point. There is much similarity.

Now, Greece approaches the perfect storm. The muppets in the EU are on the verge of s******g themselevs as the Euro is under threat.

Scenario 1....Bring about drastic cuts and privatisation and get a bail out ( Civil unrest is already underway, just expect more )This will 'shore up' the haemorrhage for short while. We then go back to square one, and Greece defaults in the long run ( ie, NO CHANCE of paying debts, but in the interim continue to inflict punishment to the populace and prop up the fatcat banks for a little longer ).

Scenario 2....Don't impose the cuts...Go bankrupt ( some banks will collapse ). Realise you have NO CHANCE of paying any more money back. Return to the Drachma. Reasult: Euro contagion. Expect both Ireland and Spain to possibly follow with potential collapse of the Euro ( The UK takes a massive hit if Ireland hit the fan because of all the billions we have contributed to proping it up ). Painfull, but relatively short lived. Perhaps the best overall option in the long term.

Scenario 3....Dirty deals. So desperate are the EU at maintaining the Euro they will probably allow banks to 'put aside' the debt for an extended period to allow Greece to 'recover' somewhat ( ie, up to 30 years it has been indicated ). However greece has a fat chance of recovery, as corruption is rife and they have been living the easy life at others expense for too long....It seem that we are only putting off the inevitable unless they accept radical change, but will they ?.

I suspect some 'package' may be manufactured, but that does not say that the Euro is not a flawed project; it is. As for the UK 'having to be part of this' or our trade will suffer, then that is crap. Trade needs to be based on quality of product and need, along with effective marketing. Make something people want, and at the right price and quality and people will buy it ( the Japs do ! ). Its called COMPETITION, and we in the Uk need to get our act together and face up to that.

We do not need a European parliament to tell us how to do that, or dictate out laws.

Technician

Hi Guys....and I hope you have a nice holiday in "your house in Italy" Jim.

It is great that both of you are willing to come here and consider other-people's views while posting your own, after all, that is what democracy is all about.

Even as a committed European I will and have admitted that the European entity as it exists at the moment is terribly flawed. That is still no reason to just run away from these problems when, if we pool our resources and our combined brainpower and knowledge, instead of writing off this massive experiment in allied cooperation we might find ways in which to make it work better.

The idea - as I said before - is NOT going to go away no matter how many of the weaker states get themselves in trouble. All that is going to happen is that the community is going to pull together and help each-other out until these troubled ones can recover and eventually the EU and its currency is going to come out the other end stronger and fitter.

In my years of running different things I have found out that the best time to commit to anything is to get in while it is cheap to do so and while it is being created so that when better times come the ones that went in cheaply will be the ones that will enjoy the benefits at a later date. This takes courage and fortitude and as my old Irish grannie used to say: "Faint heart never won fair lady".