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    29 MPs could lose their easy seats if the AV vote says YES !

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    papa_umau
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    29 MPs could lose their easy seats if the AV vote says YES !

    Post by papa_umau on Mon 02 May 2011, 11:29 am

    I will be voting YES in the AV referendum on the fifth because I feel that "seats for the boys" is no way that any democratic system should work.

    In the past we have seen the big two getting their candidates elected with only a small share of the actual vote and I think that that is simply WRONG.

    It is not surprising that the Tories AND some of the Labourites have been campaigning to keep the status-quo as many of them would not have been MPs if the AV system had been in force last time around.

    The Independent newspaper has done a few checks and has found that if the AV system had been in force in the last general election 29, yes 29 Tory and Labour MPs would not have been elected. ( 8 Labour and 21 Tory candidates ).

    It is time that this automatic "jobs-for-the-boys" election system was outlawed so that all MPs - from whatever party - are forced to work hard to get our votes in future. If for no other reason than that I urge all of the readers of ROB to consider voting YES at this referendum.

    Read THIS and come back and give us your thinking on this contentious subject.


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    Re: 29 MPs could lose their easy seats if the AV vote says YES !

    Post by Parliament.... on Mon 02 May 2011, 12:22 pm

    papa_umau wrote:I will be voting YES in the AV referendum on the fifth because I feel that "seats for the boys" is no way that any democratic system should work.

    In the past we have seen the big two getting their candidates elected with only a small share of the actual vote and I think that that is simply WRONG.

    It is not surprising that the Tories AND some of the Labourites have been campaigning to keep the status-quo as many of them would not have been MPs if the AV system had been in force last time around.

    The Independent newspaper has done a few checks and has found that if the AV system had been in force in the last general election 29, yes 29 Tory and Labour MPs would not have been elected. ( 8 Labour and 21 Tory candidates ).

    It is time that this automatic "jobs-for-the-boys" election system was outlawed so that all MPs - from whatever party - are forced to work hard to get our votes in future. If for no other reason than that I urge all of the readers of ROB to consider voting YES at this referendum.

    Read THIS and come back and give us your thinking on this contentious subject.

    Pap, I agree with all that you say. Cameron and his right wing cronies must be pulling their hair out at Tory Cental office.

    However, I see the British as largely backward introverted thinkers, with mindsets in a Victorian Britain, lethagic, pathetic, and insular from the rest of the world and each other, particularly among the elderly.

    So I predict a NO to AV, and a yes to the status quo.

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    Re: 29 MPs could lose their easy seats if the AV vote says YES !

    Post by Parliament.... on Tue 03 May 2011, 11:28 am

    Just recently the following letter, written by me, was printed in my local paper.

    I HAVE just received through my letter box a 'no to AV' leaflet, giving the so-called reasons why.

    This leaflet did not come from a political party, and I'm still trying to find out where it came from.

    After reading the contents of this leaflet, I see it as an insult to people's intelligence and I also find it patronising and misleading.

    AV will make all politicians work a lot harder for our votes, and anything that makes political candidates work harder is a good thing by me.

    This leaflet is scaremongering and being disingenuous with its propaganda.

    Inside the leaflet it states that the cost of AV is 250million, and that this amount of money could provide:

    2,503 doctors;
    6,297 teachers;
    8,107 nurses;
    35,885 hip replacements, or
    69,832 school places.

    Well, what this leaflet doesn't say is that, even with this saving, we still wouldn't have the above, because this and successive right-wing governments believe in low taxes and a smaller state. So all that is listed in this leaflet is propaganda for mindsets who believe it.

    I will be voting for AV for the same reason David Cameron himself does not want AV, because with the AV voting system in place Britain will never ever again elect a right-wing Tory government to power.

    In my view this is all David Cameron is worrying about, ie the Tories never gaining power in this country again. David Cameron will of course dress things up to appeal to the public who wish to believe him.

    Under our present first past the post voting system we have had right-wing governments since the 80s, beginning with the Right Hon Margaret Thatcher, followed by New Labour who took on her policies.

    I have long believed in the European social model brought to the EU via their long-held voting system of proportional representation, which the EU populus have had for decades, and the EU population are much better off than the majority of people here in the UK. I notice the leaflet does mention the EU, well it wouldn't, would it.

    At the bottom of the first page it reads: "At a time when people are losing their jobs or having their pay frozen, should we really be spending this money on a politicians 'fix'?"

    This has to be the propaganda statement of the century.

    Because factually, since the 80s, people have still been losing their jobs, their homes, their livelihoods thanks to the very same right-wing ethos that is running this country.

    It is taking this country away from state investment and subsidy, and toward privatisation and charities, because this is what David Cameron and his right wingers believe in, a wholesale return to Victorian values, and charities also depend on government subsidy. And all this is due to our existing first past the post voting system.

    As much as I want to see an end to this coalition, I believe Nick Clegg is right in wanting a 'fairer' voting system, even if AV does benefit his party the Liberal Democrats.

    AV is not as good a voting system as proportional representation, but is definitely democracy at work, because each person's vote will count, whereas with the first past the post voting system, each person's vote does not count.

    It is a lunacy to have to vote for one party which isn't your main choice just to keep another party out which still isn't your choice. Where is the democracy there?

    Under AV, people standing as Independent candidates will have be recognised by the media, unlike the present system of first past the post, where Independent candidates are ignored by the TV media, as I know only to well having stood as an Independent candidate for Totnes in the 2005 general election, but not receiving any media coverage, only the major parties were covered.

    AV would end all this political tribalism for the super wealthy, and give ordinary people from working class backgrounds a chance to stance to stand and be counted for a place in the House of Commons, if they want to, and if they can afford to, at a cost of 500 for the deposit.

    We ordinary working people have been disenfranchised from the political process for too long, we are forced to take what the politicians on the right-wing dish out to us, this is not a democracy, it is dictatorship.

    So I say yes to AV.

    Let's bring an end to elected right wing dictatorships, and the beginning of democracy in England, where if AV is voted for, every vote will count.
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    Re: 29 MPs could lose their easy seats if the AV vote says YES !

    Post by papa_umau on Tue 03 May 2011, 4:42 pm

    Great stuff Michael !

    I just hope that the rest of the people in Britain examine the reasons for or against the AV vote as if they do and they are not conned by that list of Doctors, nurses et-al that could be delivered if the vote goes to a NO then they will know the real reason why the Tories and some of the Labourites do not want it.

    I have faitn that the mass of the Brits are bright enough NOT to be caught by that kind of lying propaganda.

    Unlike yourself - it seems - I think that the overwhelming vote will be for a YES to AV and the "Tory central office folk WILL be pulling their hair out when they find just now many of them are going to be out on their ear and without a lifetime job in politics.

    If I am wrong you are well within your rights to tell me "I told you so " !


    Last edited by papa_umau on Wed 04 May 2011, 10:55 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: 29 MPs could lose their easy seats if the AV vote says YES !

    Post by Parliament.... on Wed 04 May 2011, 10:11 am

    papa_umau wrote:Great stuff Michael !

    I just hope that the rest of the people in Britain examine the reasons for or against the AV vote as if they do and they are not conned by that list of Doctors, nurses et-al that could be delivered if the vote goes to a NO then they will know the real reason why the Troies and some of the Labourites do not want it.

    I have faitn that the mass of the Brits are bright enough NOT to be caught by that kind of lying propaganda.

    Unlike yourself - it seems - I think that the overwhelming vote will be for a YES to AV and the "Tory central office folk WILL be pulling their hair out when they find just now many of them are going to be out on their ear and without a lifetime job in politics.

    If I am wrong you are well within your rights to tell me "I told you so " !

    Paul,

    I hope you right, and I am wrong. I just cannot see older pensioners suddenly changing the way they have voted all their lives.

    But I can see Students voting for AV, and younger people in general. Unlike you Paul, I have absolutely no faith in the British at large when it comes to politics.

    As my late Irish mother used to say to me, "the British working man only cares about his pint, and his cigarettes.
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    Re: 29 MPs could lose their easy seats if the AV vote says YES !

    Post by papa_umau on Wed 04 May 2011, 10:57 am

    I am sure some do, but once again, we cannot stereotype all of the British working classes !

    Never has the bottom-end of British society been so educated and aware than they are today.


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    Re: 29 MPs could lose their easy seats if the AV vote says YES !

    Post by Parliament.... on Wed 04 May 2011, 3:35 pm

    papa_umau wrote:I am sure some do, but once again, we cannot stereotype all of the British working classes !

    Never has the bottom-end of British society been so educated and aware than they are today.

    I simply do not agree with you on this.

    I believe we British are largely politically uneducated and docile, sheep like.

    Nothing has changed in the British mindset since Thatcher.
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    Re: 29 MPs could lose their easy seats if the AV vote says YES !

    Post by papa_umau on Thu 05 May 2011, 11:31 am

    You keep saying things like "We British" and other stereotypical statements but even if you do not agree that the Brits - as a nation - ARE changing in this respect I would still like to see you congratulating the ones that are changing and that are starting to look at politics with a non-biased eye.

    I am certain-sure that there are many more people JUST LIKE US out there that are good activists and that are making practical changes in their lives so that they CAN start to change the whole system for the better.

    I think that you will find that when AV DOES come in - as I am sure it will - many more people will value their vote than did before.


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    Re: 29 MPs could lose their easy seats if the AV vote says YES !

    Post by zathrus on Fri 06 May 2011, 12:47 pm

    I certainly will, "value my vote better" I mean !
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    Re: 29 MPs could lose their easy seats if the AV vote says YES !

    Post by Angie baby on Sat 07 May 2011, 12:33 pm

    It look as if we are not going to get AV after a large proportion of the people of Britain voted NO.

    I blame Nick Clegg for this as he is now so hated in Britain that he has driven a lot of the people away from the vote that might have voted yes if they had not realised that Clegg wanted it too.

    If he continues to survive I will be very surprised.

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    Re: 29 MPs could lose their easy seats if the AV vote says YES !

    Post by Parliament.... on Sat 07 May 2011, 2:52 pm

    Angie baby wrote:It look as if we are not going to get AV after a large proportion of the people of Britain voted NO.

    I blame Nick Clegg for this as he is now so hated in Britain that he has driven a lot of the people away from the vote that might have voted yes if they had not realised that Clegg wanted it too.

    If he continues to survive I will be bery surprised.

    Im not a Lib-Dems supporter, but it's so easy for armchair critics to chastise anybody standing and being counted, trying to do the right thing against all odds, and to the ridicule of others.

    I can relate to Nick Clegg, I know how Nick Clegg feels, demoralised.

    Please dont judge a person until you have walked in their shoes.

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    Re: 29 MPs could lose their easy seats if the AV vote says YES !

    Post by papa_umau on Mon 09 May 2011, 12:44 pm

    I can relate to Nick Clegg too as I see there a man who has sold out his birthright for a few pieces of silver.

    He is a traitor to his kind and he knows it.

    He now deserves everything he gets !


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    Re: 29 MPs could lose their easy seats if the AV vote says YES !

    Post by Parliament.... on Wed 11 May 2011, 2:14 pm

    papa_umau wrote:I can relate to Nick Clegg too as I see there a man who has sold out his birthright for a few pieces of silver.

    He is a traitor to his kind and he knows it.

    He now deserves everything he gets !

    /////I can relate to Nick Clegg too////

    How ?
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    Re: 29 MPs could lose their easy seats if the AV vote says YES !

    Post by papa_umau on Thu 12 May 2011, 11:45 am

    Boy, I REALLY have to be careful in what I am saying when you are around eh ?

    I "relate" to any politico that choses the easy path as I have seen that action performed by many people in my lifetime.

    One does not have to have been a "seller-out" to recognise one and to "relate" to one when one sees one !

    Clegg is an opportunist and a typically political animal who has taken the "pieces of silver" in order to forward his own career rather than to forward the future of the Liberal Democrats. In fact I would go further and say that by accepting those cabinet posts and afterwards pushing Tory agendas he has in fact done his party great damage.

    I am quite sure that there are many REAL Liberal democrats that might agree with me on this point too.


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    Re: 29 MPs could lose their easy seats if the AV vote says YES !

    Post by zathrus on Thu 12 May 2011, 11:55 am

    Have to agree with you there Paps, as I am also sure that there are many Lib Dems that are now rueing that day that their leader teamed up with the Tories and especially with Cameron, who IS a closet Thatcherite no matter how hard he tries to hide it.

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    Re: 29 MPs could lose their easy seats if the AV vote says YES !

    Post by Parliament.... on Sat 14 May 2011, 4:34 pm

    zathrus wrote:Have to agree with you there Paps, as I am also sure that there are many Lib Dems that are now rueing that day that their leader teamed up with the Tories and especially with Cameron, who IS a closet Thatcherite no matter how hard he tries to hide it.

    You never did declare what policies you liked about Thatcher ?

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    Re: 29 MPs could lose their easy seats if the AV vote says YES !

    Post by Parliament.... on Tue 24 May 2011, 11:45 am

    zathrus wrote:Have to agree with you there Paps, as I am also sure that there are many Lib Dems that are now rueing that day that their leader teamed up with the Tories and especially with Cameron, who IS a closet Thatcherite no matter how hard he tries to hide it.

    Mr Z. When are you going to tell us all the policies you liked of Thatcher's ?
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    Re: 29 MPs could lose their easy seats if the AV vote says YES !

    Post by papa_umau on Tue 24 May 2011, 12:22 pm

    Take it easy Ivanhoe, you cannot FORCE anyone to respond to your questions. All you can do is to eventually turn them off and antagonise them by such dogged questioning.

    I would think that our Zath' is now just ignoring you.

    Better that than starting a flame war, don't you think ?


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    Re: 29 MPs could lose their easy seats if the AV vote says YES !

    Post by Parliament.... on Sun 29 May 2011, 11:00 am

    papa_umau wrote:Take it easy Ivanhoe, you cannot FORCE anyone to respond to your questions. All you can do is to eventually turn them off and antagonise them by such dogged questioning.

    I would think that our Zath' is now just ignoring you.

    Better that than starting a flame war, don't you think ?

    Pap, Some while ago "Zath" stated he liked some policies of Margaret Thatcher's or words to that effect connected to the right hon lady.

    Now his writings are contrary to her and I for one would like to what his orginal thoughts were, and why he appears to have changed his mind, naturally he doesnt have to say anything, but im just "interested".
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    Re: 29 MPs could lose their easy seats if the AV vote says YES !

    Post by papa_umau on Sun 29 May 2011, 12:02 pm

    Do you not agree that even some of the worst monsters in history have positive points to their character ?

    I honestly believe that you are so down on Thatcher that you cannot admit for a moment that she was admired and followed by a large portion of British society for many years.

    Because of the blinkered attitude you have about Thatcher you are unable to see anything other than the political predator that she certainly was.

    I don't know about Zath' or where he actually stands on this subject but even I - being so hard down on her policies of fundamentalistic rightism - am able to see why she was - at that time - the most powerful leader and exponent of rightist ethics that Britain has ever known.


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    Re: 29 MPs could lose their easy seats if the AV vote says YES !

    Post by Parliament.... on Mon 13 Jun 2011, 4:02 pm

    papa_umau wrote:Do you not agree that even some of the worst monsters in history have positive points to their character ?

    I honestly believe that you are so down on Thatcher that you cannot admit for a moment that she was admired and followed by a large portion of British society for many years.

    Because of the blinkered attitude you have about Thatcher you are unable to see anything other than the political predator that she certainly was.

    I don't know about Zath' or where he actually stands on this subject but even I - being so hard down on her policies of fundamentalistic rightism - am able to see why she was - at that time - the most powerful leader and exponent of rightist ethics that Britain has ever known.

    Pap, Thatcher was a monster, catching the public's attention is no merit, EastEnders, and Soccer do the same.

    Basically Thatcher was a right wing souless bigot.

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    Re: 29 MPs could lose their easy seats if the AV vote says YES !

    Post by papa_umau on Tue 14 Jun 2011, 11:48 am

    Yeah, yeah, that she may have been, but chucking insinuations around about her and being constantly negative about her and being unable to see WHY she was - at that time - the most powerful and well-loved female prime-minister of all time detracts from her importance in the minds of her many supporters.

    I have always said that if you want to have an edge over any competitor or potential enemy it is best to know and evaluate eveything about them so that one can be forewarned and forearmed.

    To simply dismiss that woman as some kind of a "monster" and nothing else does not allow for her ability or her power or her influence during her political reign.

    Even as the antithesis to a caring and humane individual that she certainly WAS she was also an excellent leader and always stayed true to her rightist agenda.

    Even I am forced to admire this person for what she was and for what she gained during her term in power and any person that tries to dismiss her is actually a person that did not know very much about her.


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    Re: 29 MPs could lose their easy seats if the AV vote says YES !

    Post by Parliament.... on Tue 14 Jun 2011, 11:54 am

    papa_umau wrote:Yeah, yeah, that she may have been, but chucking insinuations around about her and being constantly negative about her and being unable to see WHY she was - at that time - the most powerful and well-loved female prime-minister of all time detracts from her importance in the minds of her many supporters.

    I have always said that if you want to have an edge over any competitor or potential enemy it is best to know and evaluate eveything about them so that one can be forewarned and forearmed.

    To simply dismiss that woman as some kind of a "monster" and nothing else does not allow for her ability or her power or her influence during her political reign.

    Even as the antithesis to a caring and humane individual that she certainly WAS she was also an excellent leader and always stayed true to her rightist agenda.

    Even I am forced to admire this person for what she was and for what she gained during her term in power and any person that tries to dismiss her is actually a person that did not know very much about her.

    Pap, Your adoration for a woman who put beggars on our streets, who placed millions of ordinary workers onto poverty pay, who threw millions into unemployment, who placed millions of pensioners into poverty, is simply something I do not share.

    Yes she stuck to her principles. But then again so did Hitler, so did Stalin.
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    Re: 29 MPs could lose their easy seats if the AV vote says YES !

    Post by papa_umau on Tue 14 Jun 2011, 12:31 pm

    Ivanhoe said:

    Pap, Your adoration for a woman who put beggars on our streets, who placed millions of ordinary workers onto poverty pay, who threw millions into unemployment, who placed millions of pensioners into poverty, is simply something I do not share.

    Yes she stuck to her principles. But then again so did Hitler, so did Stalin

    And I must immediately say that I do NOT "adore her" even if I am able to see, if not necessarily like, what she did in her period as Prime Minister.

    One can admire a person without even agreeing with anything they might say or do.

    Your analogy with Thatcher and Hitler and Stalin is both unfair and untrue as she was never a fascist even if she did come from the far right of her party.

    It is unwavering opinions like that that have got you into most of the trouble you have found yourself in in other forums. I am surprised that you cannot see this point.


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    Re: 29 MPs could lose their easy seats if the AV vote says YES !

    Post by Parliament.... on Tue 14 Jun 2011, 12:48 pm

    papa_umau wrote:Ivanhoe said:

    Pap, Your adoration for a woman who put beggars on our streets, who placed millions of ordinary workers onto poverty pay, who threw millions into unemployment, who placed millions of pensioners into poverty, is simply something I do not share.

    Yes she stuck to her principles. But then again so did Hitler, so did Stalin

    And I must immediately say that I do NOT "adore her" even if I am able to see, if not necessarily like, what she did in her period as Prime Minister.

    One can admire a person without even agreeing with anything they might say or do.

    Your analogy with Thatcher and Hitler and Stalin is both unfair and untrue as she was never a fascist even if she did come from the far right of her party.

    It is unwavering opinions like that that have got you into most of the trouble you have found yourself in in other forums. I am surprised that you cannot see this point.

    Pap, How can you admire a person who did what she did ?

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