My new Blackberry.....On Orange.

For some time now I have been waiting for the Blackberry Bold to drop below the £300.00 mark on PAYG so that I could buy it and use the inbuilt sat-nav to help me when I go hill-walking. ( which I often do BTW ).

Two weeks ago I noticed that this model of Blackberry mobile - with Orange - had finally dropped below the £300.00 mark and I went into the Orange shop to enquire further.

At the same time as I was talking to one of the sale assistants a girl who had been listening jumped into the conversation and asked if I had considered the brand new Blackberry Curve 9300 as this phone had been upgraded to almost the same standard as the "Bold" model - with GPS and Orange maps preloaded.

I went away and compared the two and after finding out that the only obvious differences between the Bold and the new Curve were that the Bold had a five-megapixel camera and the new Curve only had a two-megapixel one. Also the Bold was using the version 6 software and the new Curve was still using the version 5 software.

As my birthday is in April I speered the wife if she would go halfers for this new phone and she happily agreed.....( Whoopeeee ! ). I bought it last week.

The phone is phenominal for what I want out of it but there is one important problem:

The phone was advertised with pre-loaded Orange maps to go with the inbuilt GPS and that was one of the main reasons I finally decided to buy it.

What a problem I have been having with the Orange maps !

The instruction booklet tells me that the maps should be available via a dedicated icon on the home page, BUT....No dedicated icon when I looked for it !

I asked the assistants in the shop about this - no joy. I went online with the phone and tried to find out what was up - no joy. I went online with my computer straight to Orange and could find nothing about Orange maps other than I had to go to the "My Account" page and download an app' to make the maps work at a fiver a month. No problem, I thought. When I searched every page and nook and cranny in the "My Account" section I could not find an Orange maps download anywere. Not even for a fiver.

As a last resort I went to the telephone customers services and the first person I spoke to, ( with a thick Pakistani accent ), had no clue what I was talking about. She said that she would pass me to a "technical expert" and all that he could tell me was that I had to go online ???? I told him that the "Orange Local" maps that were to be found online were crap as they were much too small and they obviously did not use the onboard GPS to fix my position. I was given a position of a town five miles away. When I told him this he hung up on me ! ( Was I fizzing ).

This problem is still up in the air and I will tell you all about what develops !

That's a nasty story Paps !

I hope that the Blackberry and the Orange bosses get to see this piece.

Blackberry in particular have always depended on their good name and this name will get tarnished if they find that such a story has got out to the internet at large.

I know that you have many readers, ( lurkers ), that visit R.O.B. who will see this posting and then we may find that this weakness may get passed around, as all things "internet" always do.

Personally I cannot afford a Blackberry, so I am just going to have to stick with my three-year-old Motorola Razr. It has served me well and I do not feel the need to dole out more money for some fashion icon.

Not getting at you Paps as it seems that you have plenty of moolah to chuck around eh ?

Yeah Zath, I think that our Papa is a rich as cresus but as mean as any typical Scotsman. ( Boy am I going to get pelters for saying that )

Anyway, I think that neither Orange or Blackberry are going to like the bad publicity that this thread is going to bring to them.

Keep us updated Papa as I for one want to know how they fix that problem.

Good luck !

You wee besum Angie.....ME...."mean" ?

Like all good Scotsmen - and women BTW - I am careful with my money and I REALLY hate it when I have to pay out money under false-pretences, as I have done with my Blackberry 9300 G3 - under Orange.

At the outset and when I was buying this phone I was told that it was compatible with Orange maps and that the excellent A-GPS system onboard, ( which I have no doubt is great ), would integrate with the maps - either embedded already or downloadable. When I could find no sign of any maps onboard and I was strongly advised by Orange that this particular phone was NOT compatible with Orange maps I was not only terribly disappointed but I was angry that I could have been so badly misled by the Orange salespersons.

I mean... What the hell is the point of having a superb GPS system on board my phone when I cannot turn the phone into a half-decent Sat-Nav machine as with the six other Orange Blackberry's - under Orange - that are available in Britain that DO use Orange maps very successfuly.

Since I went to the Blackberry international community with my story I have had a number of replies. Some of these replies simply told me to go and get a third-party set of maps from the likes of Google or others - who provide maps for well-known sat-nav machines - but I am very nervous about doing this as my phone is still under guarantee and I wonder what would happen if I damaged my brand new phone by trying anything like that.

One reply was from a British person who said that his Blackberry 9300 G3 phone run by O2 was happily running maps, and he could not see why my Orange Blackberry could not do the same.

Neither can I !

Anyway, I have sent a three page letter away to Orange Communications head-office and I will wait with baited breath to see what they recommend I do.

I have already asked - from the original Orange shop - if it would be possible to exchange my present - and still immaculate - phone for any other phone that CAN run maps - and pay the difference if I have to - but here too I was met by a brick wall....NO !

I am starting to get seriously pissed off with Orange !

Hi again folks !

I eventually managed to get hold of the manager in the Orange shop that I have the problem with and I have to say that he seemed very pleasant, efficient and willing to help me with my problem.

Unlike with the other sales-persons that I saw he, ( Gareth ), seemed to be able and willing to change my partially-useless - if totally beautiful - Blackberry Curve 9300 3G for a similarly-priced Blackberry Bold 9700, which is advertised by Orange - after the fact - as capable of downloading and operating Orange maps.

( All that I was looking for in the first place ! ).

As they did not have a Blackberry Bold 9700 in stock, I have to phone after midday on Friday to see if they have managed to aquire one from another branch.

Of course I will keep you all up to date with the actions here - as they happen !

Watch this space.......

Don't relax yet Paps as he might still go back on his word.

No doubt if he does you will be right back here with further vitriol !

I would never like to get on your wrong side !

Boy, you know me well Zath' !

In fact, I received a phone-call from Gareth - the manager of the Orange shop - yesterday, telling me that he had aquired a new Blackberry Bold 9700 for me and if I could come in he would do the changeover.

I went in today and he - Gareth - went quickly into the changeover procedure. After about half an hour he had swapped the sim-card, the media card and all of my contact list from the old phone to the new one.

Bravo ! and well done !

It is just as shame that I had to wait a fortnight to get this obvious answer to my plight. I must say that this was not the manager's fault as he was away on paternity leave during the difficult period and the sales-people that were left did not feel that they had the authority to do what Gareth did for me.

I guess that the whole message we should take from this saga is that if we feel badly done by by ANY retailer or any company we should get our facts right, find out what our rights are, and stick with the conflict - in a quiet and measured manner - until it is resolved to our satisfaction.

Don't forget that if any of you that are reading this are in any doubt about who you may make contact with in order to aid you to this end you can always go to the self-help sub-forum here on Ripped-Off Britain.

There you will find a long list of links and addresses and phone numbers where you can start to get advice and help around just about any consumerism problem that you might find yourself stuck with.

Go HERE and best of luck to you !

Now I am going to download the Orange maps to my new phone - which were denied me on my old phone - and get happily out onto the hills once again !

Interesting thread Papa; It is good to see that some customers get well treated by sales people. Mind you, I think that in your case, Papa, the fact that you are experienced in consumer affairs did you no harm.

I must say that I am a bit jealous as I could not afford a Blackberry never mind an iphone4. ( My dream ). I am just going to have to be stuck with and happy with my three year old Samsung.

Jealous ? Probably !

I am even having problems with my NEW Blackberry as I am not able to access the internet with it any other way than via Wi-Fi. I do not have a normal internet browser in my home-page choices of browsers.

I have been on to customer services and they tell me that my super-dooper new Blackberry Bold 9700 is "NOT ABLE" access the internet via normal Network access unless I have paid for a "bundle" that includes this and an e-mail and a blackberry messenger account at £5.00 per month EVERY month.

So, I have been forced to pay for this add-on bundle so that I can simply access the internet for the aquisition of Orange Maps. Seems a bit of a rip-off to me !

I will enquire further !

Well, I finally relented and gave in to them. I ordered the £5.00 a month package deal that was to include - A standard internet WAP BROWSER - an e-mail account and a Blackberry messenger account.

So far my phone has been quietly set up for Blackberry instant messenging, ( which is actually no use to me as I don't know anybody that I would want to chat to that has a Blackberry phone ), but there is still no sign of a WAP browser on my home-page menu......or a promised e-mail account.

Maybe they will eventually get these things to me - especially the WAP browser - and I can at last download Orange maps for my hillwalking pastime.

Believe me, dealing with Orange Customer Services is like pulling teeth !

I REALLY hope that the Orange management people are watching this thread !

Watch this space......

Here is the reply I received from the Advertising standards Authority concerning this complaint:

Dear Mr ****
Thank you for contacting us.
I should say straight away that we have considered the website and the issue you raise carefully but there don’t seem to be grounds for formal action under our Code at this stage. I realise this might disappoint you but I’ll try and explain.
As far as I can gather the website makes no specific claims that the phone comes with Orange Maps or that Orange Maps is available for that particular phone. Although I realise it would be frustrating for you if you were lead to believe by staff that it would be available for that phone, or assumed it would be, we wouldn’t expect the page to list the apps that are not compatible with the phone.
Shop window displays and point of sale material generally fall outside the remit of the advertising Codes that we administer. You’ll appreciate that we can’t comment on discussions you had with staff in store. If you remain unhappy with your purchase you might like to seek further advice from your local Citizens Advice Bureau or Consumer Direct, either through its website at www.consumerdirect.gov.uk or by phone on 08454 04 05 06.
I realise you might remain disappointed but I hope this at least explains our position. Kind regards

Tim Evans | Complaints Executive

Direct line 020 7492 2174 | E-mail time@asa.org.uk
Advertising Standards Authority
Mid City Place 71 High Holborn London WC1V 6QT

Telephone 020 7492 2222 www.asa.org.uk

Keeping advertising standards high

And here is my response to this VERY disappointing ruling:

Dear Mr Evans....

Yes I am disappointed with your ruling as it seems that the overview the ASA have concerned with the advertising that you say is outwith your remit means that you really are quite ineffectual in many ways. I would have thought that advertising at "point of sale" would be just as important to you as website advertising might be as this is the main point of contact that the public have with the seller.

The fact that one of the instructions booklets within the phone packaging directed me to be able to get Orange maps as a £5.00 per month deal - if not true - MUST be construed as a breach of the Trade Descriptions Act and a very misleading statement when I found - after the fact - that the phone was not compatible with Orange maps.

As this was one of the strongest reasons for me buying the phone in the first place, I feel that I was misled by both the documentation that came with the phone and the promises that were made by sales staff at time of purchase.

As far as the advertising in their website is concerned: it is strange that over the past few days that Blackberry Curve 9300 phone has suddenly been made compatible with Blackberry maps if not Orange maps. When one realises that most people who use this phone - who wish to be able to use the excellent A-GPS facility in the phone - will expect an integrated maps system to be downloadable if not already resident on the phone, it was totally unacceptable that for me - at that time - to find that the phone was not compatible with ANY form of integrated maps and that I would have to use the GPS system in the phone along with PAPER maps in order to get the use of the resident GPS and the advertised. "GPS for easy navigation".

I guess that what this adds up to is that the ASA are not worth the paper that their name is printed on and like many other government watchdogs, you are in fact quite toothless.

Why am I not surprised about this ?

For your interest, I will publish your ruling and my added comment on my consumer website called: Ripped-Off Britain. You will find the thread here: http://rippedoffbritain.forumotion.net/t1236-my-new-blackberryon-orange

Great stuff Paps. I can tell you that I would much rather have you as a friend than as an enemy !

I do hope that some menial type has been tasked to keep an eye on this thread and to report to the Orange marketing people, as if he or she does report back I am sure that general customer relations will improve as a result.

It is just a shame that nobody from Orange has had the gonads to come here and comment.

Something tells me that you are just not going to let them sweep this dispute under the carpet.

Nope mate I am not !

The latest twist and probably the last one - I HOPE - is that when I eventually found a WAP browser on my phone, ( after two further calls to customer services ), I could AT LAST download Orange maps....Or could I ?

The standard Orange network WAP browser works fine but when I eventually went to the link that they provided to get Orange maps and I downloaded them to my phone I was surprised to find that the only mapping icon that had appeared on my home-page was the icon for BLACKBERRY MAPS ?????

Yes, I WAS confused as it seemed at the time that I could still not get Orange maps on my phone.

When I went to the instruction pages for "maps" I found that the Blackberry maps download was a "DEFAULT" option and that there was no further option on the drop-down menu attached.

After reporting this by e-mail to Orange and not getting a reply, I tried again to download Orange Maps......BINGO, it seemed to work this time, but just to make the whole thing more confusing and complex the Orange maps icon did not appear on my home-page as I expected it would and as the Blackberry maps had. I did a search for the download in what seemed to be an empty "download" folder,and lo and behold there was my download of Orange maps.

The compulsory reading and accepting of the terms and conditions came next which meant about twenty or thirty scrolls down with the track-pad and an absence of the "agree" button - "at the bottom of the page" that I was told to accept. I eventually found a "yes-or-no" option when I hit the Blackberry menu key. I scrolled to "yes" and clicked on this option. ( Not very intuitive ).

Afterwards, as the connecting icon was still in the download folder I had to try to find out how to transfer it to my home page. ( One would have thought that these instructions might have come with the download ! ).

I eventually found out, ( remember this is a brand new phone and one that I am still learning to navigate with ), how to transfer the Orange maps starting icon onto my home screen.

NOW...AND AT LONG LAST I have Orange maps where I want them and after downloading and printing out the full instructions paperwork in PDF format, I can now explore all of the great features of this application.

I will now be paying £10.00 per month on my PAYG phone for the Orange maps and the Blackberry internet package even although my webmail account will not work with the internet e-mail feature and the Blackberry Messenger feature is no good to me as I only have one friend who also has a Blackberry machine. ( My next door neighbour BTW ).

Boy, do they know how to make things difficult for their customers !

NOT an easy or enjoyable experience for me from start to finish !

What a saga Papa !

If that had been me I would have given in to them long ago.

I guess that is why we Brits make poor consumers as we always take the easy way out.

Yes Angie, sadly that is too true !

I have never been like that even before I started to study consumerism as I really hate to be taken for a mug and/or abused and mistreated by customer services - or ANYBODY - for that matter.

Tnat is one of the reasons why I started this consumer website in the first place and why I used to edit the original Rip-Off Britain forum before it was closed down by its owner.

AND... you are doing a great job too !