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    Will Cameron's cure be "worse than the disease" ?

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    papa_umau
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    Will Cameron's cure be "worse than the disease" ?

    Post by papa_umau on Mon 07 Jun 2010, 10:55 am

    Michael White, a respected economist from the Guardian newspaper said today that the way Cameron and Osborne are going about curing the government debt crisis could finish up making matters worse and could be risking a "double-dip" drop into further recession.

    See his full article HERE.

    What do you folks think ?


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    RECESSION, RECSSION, RECESSION.

    Post by Parliament.... on Mon 28 Mar 2011, 12:25 pm

    papa_umau wrote:Michael White, a respected economist from the Guardian newspaper said today that the way Cameron and Osborne are going about curing the government debt crisis could finish up making matters worse and could be risking a "double-dip" drop into further recession.

    See his full article HERE.

    What do you folks think ?

    Pap, We only ever have recessions under the right of the Tory party when in Government.

    We had a recession under Thatcher, and under Major.

    And when Tony Blair took Labour to the right following 1997, we had a recession then. And now re- this coaltion we are bac to Thatcherism, if not worse.
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    Re: Will Cameron's cure be "worse than the disease" ?

    Post by papa_umau on Mon 28 Mar 2011, 1:02 pm

    You know already that I agree with you on that point !

    I find it interesting that many more so-called Liberal democrats are agreeing with us too. One in particular - I cannot remember his name - left the Liberal democrats yesterday for precisely that reason and is now to campaign as an independent.

    Believe me, that the Lib-Dems are falling apart as we watch them suffer defeat after ignominious defeat and now Clegg is in such a flat spin that he is planning on changing the name of his party. To what, I don't know.

    I might suggest that he calls it the Pseudo-Tory-Party !


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    Things getting worse

    Post by Technician on Wed 30 Mar 2011, 2:20 pm

    Hi Folks,

    Interesting thread. Yes, I think things will get worse, but you must also remember ( and I know that this may be uncomfortable ), that under Gordon Brown of the 'There will be no boom or bust' scenario we were spending money like no tommorow. As for Mr Milliband being in full condemnation of the LIB-CON pact, then fine, its his job to be critical. Trouble is he has not a clue how to get us out of the mess his party has TO A LARGE EXTENT created.

    Such is the level of debt we owe, that even if Osborne and Cammeron were to DOUBLE the spending cuts from the levels we have now it would make a minimal dent in the total. We are unfortunately in this for the long term. What else do you expect them to do to reduce such a burden. Interest on all this reamins cumulative; you just cannot spend money you do not have, there comes a payback time.

    No, I am not a 'closet Tory', however do we want to see Britain developing into the basket case scenario seen in Greece, developing in Ireland, and in all probability hitting Portugal ??.

    We aught to thank God we are NOT in the Euro. That said the present 'government needs to reign in all this stupid spending and get some of the priorities right, ie

    Stop fighting wars we cannot afford or should not be embroiled in.

    Tax the banks and stuff the fat cats till it hurts and they start to help ordinary people ( they are much more accomodating in mainland europe ).

    Cut the quango's, don't just threaten.

    Stop foreign aid in all but desperate circumstances I ie, Japan for instance.

    And that's for starters

    Technician

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    Re: Will Cameron's cure be "worse than the disease" ?

    Post by Angie baby on Sat 02 Apr 2011, 12:33 pm

    I have to agree with you on all of those points Technician, as to me what you say is just common sense. The thing is; when or how often do we see or expect common sense from politicians ?

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    Re: Will Cameron's cure be "worse than the disease" ?

    Post by papa_umau on Sun 03 Apr 2011, 12:57 pm

    I honestly do see what you mean Technician, but, surely you agree that in modern times all people and governments all around the world have to use and deal with borrowing to a greater or a smaller extent.

    I think that the best solution to our ills is to do this - as we have to - in ways that are not only manageable but are planned-for in the long term. In other words, running a country is just like running any other financial structure in any section of society; even like running a home might be - if it is done right.

    I am not a "closet Tory" either but I can not remember any incoming government of ANY hue not having to deal with a high level of debt created by the outgoing government. This is the way of life in politics and it is churlish for the Tories to keep hammering on about the amount of debt that they inherited from the New-Labour regime as if all they have to do now is get rid of that debt - or some of it - and everything afterwards in the garden will be "coming up roses".

    That statement is so wrong, no matter what way you look at it.


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    Borrowing

    Post by Technician on Tue 05 Apr 2011, 6:54 pm

    Yes, I agree, but 'borrowing' is not the only issue. The major crime of Labour is waste and a control 'freak' mentality.

    To shore up the ever controlling state they created thousands of non-jobs ( public sector, including pension benefits ). Jobs such as 'diversity officer', five a day manager' bed manager etc. On top of this control ( a prime example is the refuse service ) they introduce punitive 'fines'and a wealth of stealth taxes to rob the public of further money to pay for this waste.

    In the old days we had ONE weekly collection of refuse. Now we have the cost of 3 different refuse vans ( who pays for the fuel, and how can this be carbon friendly ??). We also have 4 different types of bin ( 3 are large, and one at least has a microchip in the lid )Again, increasing the costs and the cost of monitoring so they can fine you for getting rid of the 'wrong sort of rubbish in the wrong bin'

    This is ONE example of burgeoning cost and waste.......In any normal household one would be thinking of reducing costs once the credit card had been maxed out, not looking for new ways of wasting money !!

    Technician
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    Re: Will Cameron's cure be "worse than the disease" ?

    Post by papa_umau on Wed 06 Apr 2011, 11:13 am

    There is no doubt that the creation of "jobs-for-the-boys" is a common habit in government and I think that no government of the past has been better at that pastime than the Tories have.

    I also think that maybe it is a good thing to try to differentiate between "Labour" and "New-Labour" - as created by Tony Blair - as the last government were wasteful because they were pushing many Toryesque policies.

    I would hope that if another true LABOUR government comes in under Ed Miliband we would see many of the traditionally careful policies of a "back-to-the-roots" Labour government.

    Because the Tories and the ersatz Tories - in the New-Labourites - have been blindly turning everything over to the open market and the private sector we are going to find a public sector that is seriously damaged as it has been reduced to the bare bones.


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    Re: Will Cameron's cure be "worse than the disease" ?

    Post by Parliament.... on Wed 08 Jun 2011, 11:04 pm

    papa_umau wrote:I honestly do see what you mean Technician, but, surely you agree that in modern times all people and governments all around the world have to use and deal with borrowing to a greater or a smaller extent.

    I think that the best solution to our ills is to do this - as we have to - in ways that are not only manageable but are planned-for in the long term. In other words, running a country is just like running any other financial structure in any section of society; even like running a home might be - if it is done right.

    I am not a "closet Tory" either but I can not remember any incoming government of ANY hue not having to deal with a high level of debt created by the outgoing government. This is the way of life in politics and it is churlish for the Tories to keep hammering on about the amount of debt that they inherited from the New-Labour regime as if all they have to do now is get rid of that debt - or some of it - and everything afterwards in the garden will be "coming up roses".

    That statement is so wrong, no matter what way you look at it.

    Pap, The Tories are using the deficit as an excuse to reduce the role of the state, it is that simple. Im a pro-European, I entirely believe in the vital role of the state into markets.

    This is the European way..

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    Re: Will Cameron's cure be "worse than the disease" ?

    Post by Parliament.... on Wed 08 Jun 2011, 11:06 pm

    Technician wrote:Yes, I agree, but 'borrowing' is not the only issue. The major crime of Labour is waste and a control 'freak' mentality.

    To shore up the ever controlling state they created thousands of non-jobs ( public sector, including pension benefits ). Jobs such as 'diversity officer', five a day manager' bed manager etc. On top of this control ( a prime example is the refuse service ) they introduce punitive 'fines'and a wealth of stealth taxes to rob the public of further money to pay for this waste.

    In the old days we had ONE weekly collection of refuse. Now we have the cost of 3 different refuse vans ( who pays for the fuel, and how can this be carbon friendly ??). We also have 4 different types of bin ( 3 are large, and one at least has a microchip in the lid )Again, increasing the costs and the cost of monitoring so they can fine you for getting rid of the 'wrong sort of rubbish in the wrong bin'

    This is ONE example of burgeoning cost and waste.......In any normal household one would be thinking of reducing costs once the credit card had been maxed out, not looking for new ways of wasting money !!

    Technician

    ////////////////The major crime of Labour is waste and a control 'freak' mentality////////////

    Absolute rubbish We need to return to tax at source, and spend accordingly.

    Reducing waste is a one off.


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    Re: Will Cameron's cure be "worse than the disease" ?

    Post by Parliament.... on Wed 08 Jun 2011, 11:08 pm

    Angie baby wrote:I have to agree with you on all of those points Technician, as to me what you say is just common sense. The thing is; when or how often do we see or expect common sense from politicians ?


    I dont. Far too many people think like Tech', and it is part of the reason we are in this situation today.

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    Re: Will Cameron's cure be "worse than the disease" ?

    Post by Parliament.... on Wed 08 Jun 2011, 11:15 pm

    Technician wrote:Yes, I agree, but 'borrowing' is not the only issue. The major crime of Labour is waste and a control 'freak' mentality.

    To shore up the ever controlling state they created thousands of non-jobs ( public sector, including pension benefits ). Jobs such as 'diversity officer', five a day manager' bed manager etc. On top of this control ( a prime example is the refuse service ) they introduce punitive 'fines'and a wealth of stealth taxes to rob the public of further money to pay for this waste.

    In the old days we had ONE weekly collection of refuse. Now we have the cost of 3 different refuse vans ( who pays for the fuel, and how can this be carbon friendly ??). We also have 4 different types of bin ( 3 are large, and one at least has a microchip in the lid )Again, increasing the costs and the cost of monitoring so they can fine you for getting rid of the 'wrong sort of rubbish in the wrong bin'

    This is ONE example of burgeoning cost and waste.......In any normal household one would be thinking of reducing costs once the credit card had been maxed out, not looking for new ways of wasting money !!

    Technician

    /////////In the old days we had ONE weekly collection of refuse. Now we have the cost of 3 different refuse vans ( who pays for the fuel, and how can this be carbon friendly ??). We also have 4 different types of bin ( 3 are large, and one at least has a microchip in the lid )Again, increasing the costs and the cost of monitoring so they can fine you for getting rid of the 'wrong sort of rubbish in the wrong bin'

    This is ONE example of burgeoning cost and waste.......In any normal household one would be thinking of reducing costs once the credit card had been maxed out, not looking for new ways of wasting money !!///////////

    Your second point is probably because private companies have taken over rubbish collection. In the old days well funded councils did the job in one day.

    The role of the state is vital, but because we listen and believe what our politicians say about waste ect, this in my view is as far as our thinking goes.




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    Re: Will Cameron's cure be "worse than the disease" ?

    Post by Parliament.... on Wed 08 Jun 2011, 11:19 pm

    Ivanhoe wrote:
    Technician wrote:Yes, I agree, but 'borrowing' is not the only issue. The major crime of Labour is waste and a control 'freak' mentality.

    To shore up the ever controlling state they created thousands of non-jobs ( public sector, including pension benefits ). Jobs such as 'diversity officer', five a day manager' bed manager etc. On top of this control ( a prime example is the refuse service ) they introduce punitive 'fines'and a wealth of stealth taxes to rob the public of further money to pay for this waste.

    In the old days we had ONE weekly collection of refuse. Now we have the cost of 3 different refuse vans ( who pays for the fuel, and how can this be carbon friendly ??). We also have 4 different types of bin ( 3 are large, and one at least has a microchip in the lid )Again, increasing the costs and the cost of monitoring so they can fine you for getting rid of the 'wrong sort of rubbish in the wrong bin'

    This is ONE example of burgeoning cost and waste.......In any normal household one would be thinking of reducing costs once the credit card had been maxed out, not looking for new ways of wasting money !!

    Technician

    ////////////////The major crime of Labour is waste and a control 'freak' mentality////////////

    Absolute rubbish We need to return to tax at source, and spend accordingly.

    Reducing waste is a one off.


    ///////To shore up the ever controlling state they created thousands of non-jobs ( public sector, including pension benefits ). Jobs such as 'diversity officer', five a day manager' bed manager etc. On top of this control ( a prime example is the refuse service ) they introduce punitive 'fines'and a wealth of stealth taxes to rob the public of further money to pay for this waste.//////

    It seems you want things both ways. State or local. We still have to pay. Is'nt it better to pay via direct taxation, other than an unjust local council tax. ?

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    Re: Will Cameron's cure be "worse than the disease" ?

    Post by papa_umau on Thu 09 Jun 2011, 11:05 am

    I think that all taxation should be "JUST" and easy to spot.

    That is why the past two governments have chosen to go down the "stealth-tax" road instead of putting up our direct taxes. ( They think that we cannot see what they are doing when they put up stealth taxes and that is why they bodyswerve putting up direct taxes ).

    I think that that is an insult to our intelligence as most of us DO know what they are up to.


    Last edited by papa_umau on Sat 11 Jun 2011, 4:21 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Will Cameron's cure be "worse than the disease" ?

    Post by Parliament.... on Sat 11 Jun 2011, 2:26 pm

    papa_umau wrote:I think that all taxtion should be "JUST" and easy to spot.

    That is why the past two governments have chosen to go down the "stealth-tax" road instead of putting up our direct taxes. ( They think that we cannot see what they are doing when they put up stealth taxes and that is why they bodyswerve putting up direct taxes ).

    I think that that is an insult to our intelligence as most of us DO know what they are up to.

    /////In the 80's Margaret Thatcher cut income tax for all British workers, this mainly benefit the rich.

    She then abolished rates and brought in poll tax which was quashed, this was followed by community charge and now council tax, to pay for vital services.

    This tax agenda signalled the beginnings of the end of State invesment and subsidy into our vital services, and the beginnings of what we are seeing now under this coalition, a rolling back of the State, in favour of privatisation and Charities.

    This is basically a devolution of all of our communities from the role of what the State should provide via direct taxation.

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    Re: Will Cameron's cure be "worse than the disease" ?

    Post by papa_umau on Sat 11 Jun 2011, 4:30 pm

    Again you choose Thatcher as an example and I think that this "selling off of the family silver has been going on well before her time and again, well after it.

    Numerous governments of different hues have been trying to "save money" - as they put it - by diminishing the role of the state and handing over these services to the private sector and I now think that after Cameron's latest attack on our state-run NHS, ( which looks as if he may have to either severely restrict his actions or even cancel them because the people rightly think that the NHS is sacrosant ), they may have realised that at last they have gone too far.

    Cameron has been forced to pull his horns in a number of times recently and now we are seeing a Prime Minister who is starting to look right out of his depth.

    I think we should just "watch this space" as more is to come.


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    Re: Will Cameron's cure be "worse than the disease" ?

    Post by Parliament.... on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 7:26 pm

    papa_umau wrote:Again you choose Thatcher as an example and I think that this "selling off of the family silver has been going on well before her time and again, well after it.

    Numerous governments of different hues have been trying to "save money" - as they put it - by diminishing the role of the state and handing over these services to the private sector and I now think that after Cameron's latest attack on our state-run NHS, ( which looks as if he may have to either severely restrict his actions or even cancel them because the people rightly think that the NHS is sacrosant ), they may have realised that at last they have gone too far.

    Cameron has been forced to pull his horns in a number of times recently and now we are seeing a Prime Minister who is starting to look right out of his depth.

    I think we should just "watch this space" as more is to come.

    /////Pap, the Tories were never about saving money, they are all about ideology.

    Privatisation costs more money to uphold, than nationalisation/////

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    Re: Will Cameron's cure be "worse than the disease" ?

    Post by papa_umau on Mon 13 Jun 2011, 11:36 am

    I agree with you there, but they don't believe that and they work very hard to try to persuade the electorate that what they are doing is all part of the savings that they promised.

    They have a very powerful machine that spends thousands of hours every week so that they can introduce more and more ideological ideas that look plausible.

    You and I and a few others can see through this thick jungle of obfuscation but many of the people that are only superficially interested in politics are unable to see the wood for these proverbial trees.


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    Re: Will Cameron's cure be "worse than the disease" ?

    Post by Parliament.... on Mon 13 Jun 2011, 12:04 pm

    papa_umau wrote:I agree with you there, but they don't believe that and they work very hard to try to persuade the electorate that what they are doing is all part of the savings that they promised.

    They have a very powerful machine that spends thousands of hours every week so that they can introduce more and more ideological ideas that look plausible.

    You and I and a few others can see through this thick jungle of obfuscation but many of the people that are only superficially interested in politics are unable to see the wood for these proverbial trees.

    Spot on Pap. Absolutely right.

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