It seems, from a report in the Guardian today that almost all of the best places in our top universities are already gone and that is just a week or so after the highers and "A" grades have been awarded to the brightest of our pupils.

If this story is true then there has to be something wrong with our university clearing system as if all the places are already gone there is going to be a lot of bright sixth formers that are going to lose out on university places and a chance of a decent future.

Some have been suggesting that the top qualifications at our high schools are now just too easy to get as the exams have been dumbed down to make the government pass-figures look good. I don't know about that but it certainly seems the case that there are now more secondary school graduates looking for university places than there are places to give them.

See this: http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/aug/21/university-places-go-record-time

What do you good peeps think ?

That's quite a worry Angie as my eldest grandson has just finished his sixth year and has done well in his highers and standard grades. He just has one more year to go before seriously thinking about which university courses to go for.

He WAS planning to study criminology but the way things stand he might not get a place in a good university.

I guess that we are just going to have to wait and see !

Yes but, do you think it is true that the exams are getting easier each year ? That is what some people are saying. If it is the case we are going to find that competition for university places is going to become so hard that the middle-qualifed schoolkids are not going to have a snowball's chance of getting decent further education.

Angie baby wrote:Yes but, do you think it is true that the exams are getting easier each year ? That is what some people are saying. If it is the case we are going to find that competition for university places is going to become so hard that the middle-qualifed schoolkids are not going to have a snowball's chance of getting decent further education.

Well .. it seems we have more doctors and nurses than the NHS can afford .. so they want to cut med school and nursing graduate courses

Are UK exams "getting easier" ? I think we have a problem with pushy parents/coursework on the one hand and the stupidity of modules which can be resat until the candidate gets the "right mark" on the other. I think then that we have to have continual assessment to merit general competence but still have to have a strict old fashioned exam which give some insight into how the candidate performs under the pressures of instant decision making. This exam should determine an A versus a B .

I have kids now at GCSE and A2 levels. I have one now starting his graduate career too. Lucky lad.. he got his grades and had the gift of the gab at his interview apparently. I have to say I think the INTERVIEW and initial applications count far more than the very similar results.

But for all this.. are we 100% sure that UNIVERSITY is right for all? We need tradespeople and being able to service a combi-boiler . mend a roof.. in today's demands requires an expertise which may not be "academic" but still requires a similar level of educated and harnessed intelligence and skills which are on a par with academic demands. I have to say that you Brits can be a bit "snobby" in this respect. EACH profession has its own demands . and folk take a pride in their work at whateve level.. and this pride in a job well done should reward by pay and potential clamber up a ladder to self improvement.

LOOK .. I support education and all potential for improvement . but we have to make sure that this quest does not undermine one valuable career path against a dcctrined. dogmatic .. or even phoney belief in "academia fo r sake of it" I know that my plumber. electrician.. joiner .. builder possesss a skill and expertise in his field which will command the fees commensurate with his skills and provide a decent living wage


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Oh Maril... that so fits to me !

Even although I have an IQ measured late at 148 I failed to attain any qualifications on leaving school. I was forced into a technical stream and went on to become a time served joiner and undertaker. ( trade 1 ).

After the building trade nosedived in the early sixties I decided to get a job with the government, ( civil service ), so that my future and my retireal would be safe and after 22 years in this profession I finally got out almost in one piece and with a good pension. ( Profession 1 ).

I then, after a sabattical of one year, took a good course in domestic satellite engineering and in sales and service and I also took a full business course and eventually started up my own business doing satellite installations and also specialising in quality hard-wood door installations. ( Trade 2 ).

I managed this without any further education other than vocational training and through it all had a happy and very eventful life.

The only thing wrong with NOT having a university education is that without any degrees the person has to start everything right at the bottom and decent wages do not come easy for any artisan if they are not in the right place at the right time. A decent profession always comes on the back of of a degree of some sort and those without this kind of qualification will always stay in the middle ground without almost any chance to shine and to make the really good money.

YES....the country needs indians as well as chiefs and without skilled trades and trained hands and minds there would be no need for the academicans and their high-level qualifications. One does not work without the other !

papa_umau wrote:Oh Maril... that so fits to me !

Even although I have an IQ measured late at 148 I failed to attain any qualifications on leaving school. I was forced into a technical stream and went on to become a time served joiner and undertaker. ( trade 1 ).

But those qualifications count? They do in my homeland . or rather birthland - and I retain my loyalty to Switzerland as "where I was born and educated and a country of surreal beauty . yet.. a marred or a box of mis-hapen chocolates. If you understand me properly here?


Forgot to add signature again.

After the building trade nosedived in the early sixties I decided to get a job with the government, ( civil service ), so that my future and my retireal would be safe and after 22 years in this profession I finally got out almost in one piece and with a good pension. ( Profession 1 ).

You had to pass a toughish exam - measuring IQ.. common sense and general ability here.. . which you did/

Do not do yourself down. That's a tough exam!

I then, after a sabattical of one year, took a good course in domestic satellite engineering and in sales and service and I also took a full business course and eventually started up my own business doing satellite installations and also specialising in quality hard-wood door installations. ( Trade 2 ).

I managed this without any further education other than vocational training and through it all had a happy and very eventful life.

Vocational qualifications to my mind are equal to all other professional qualifications. Let's put it this way./. I have found electricians/builders/roofers/plumbers whom I can trust as fellow professionals I think if I treat as equal.. negotiate. I do not get ripped off. If any suck in teeth. or bullsh1t me/. I do not employ. If they can tell me professionally ,, without romancing and by gum . I think they sense a person with X ray eyes here .. they stand a chance of "winning my job for them" I emply those who can expain properly and professionally and my equals in expertise in their chosen field.

I think I am tough but fair.

The only thing wrong with NOT having a university education is that without any degrees the person has to start everything right at the bottom and decent wages do not come easy for any artisan if they are not in the right place at the right time. A decent profession always comes on the back of of a degree of some sort and those without this kind of qualification will always stay in the middle ground without almost any chance to shine and to make the really good money.

I want someone who can DO and not someone who has to consult a text book of good practice which fails to work all too often. I had a leaky pipe. I called a plumber of long trust. He spent 5 hours here. He fixed my leak.. replaced all faulty stuff. and charged me just £40. He also advised me on various planned improvements and recommended a supplier at budget value for money prices for the project planned.


NO degree. but expertise and know how and common sense which has a grreater value. I am mo snob/

YES....the country needs indians as well as chiefs and without skilled trades and trained hands and minds there would be no need for the academicans and their high-level qualifications. One does not work without the other !

Indeed. I fear we make an academic molehill out of a redundant burrow of expertise. I mix up my English again .. but I think you might all understand what I am trying to say here?

Yes Maril, I am sure that I do "get" what you are alluding to in your beautifully "mixed" metaphores.

The thing is that I have found that many of the people who are TRUE professionals cannot help but look down their noses at the artisan as that is what their position in society encourages them to do.

Many of my tradesmen friends see this as snobbery, ( and yes, I do NOT include you in that indictment ), and because of this trend many tradesmen cannot resist ripping off these "rich and elitist" types.

I have found that people with money attract cowboy tradesmen like bears to a honeypot, and it is good that you are able to strike a rapport with such people so that everybody knows where they stand and they can evaluate and respect each-other.

Being a trade-unionist from waaaay-back I am now in the situation whereby I believe that money and power does not naturally or automatically bring altruism and that the weak in society have to fight tooth and claw to ensure that they do not get abused by the rich and powerful. If real humanity was an inherent part of the human condition there would be no need for a barrier between the rich and powerful and the ones below, but as this kind of humanity just does not exist, sadly there will always be a gulf between the haves and the have-nots which sets the two strata well apart.

Last week I heard on the radio that only 4% went to Uni in the 60s-early 80s - height of the baby boom years where many chased the too few places on offer.

They had grants and fees paid (means tested even then )


One angry young man wants the baby boom generation who enjoyed this education to pay more taxes and pay back those grants and fees - which were probably commensurate with today;s fees in purchasing power of the pound/franc/euro.


What the young fool forgets is that over our lifetime - that generation has paid back that benefit received - in work done ........... contribution to the growing economy and fight back against the slump periods... in taxation over the years.

Many jobs which employ graduates today do not and never do require "graduate skills" and fail to provide any job satisfaction for them - which leads to great disappointment. Many study for the sake of study - and their chosen subject of a degree in the life of "Beckham n Posh" are not quite developing the kind of intellect and "buzz" which an entrepreneur like Sir Alan wants (as shown by the rather silly inept kids in the "Apprentice" series to date

Uni ain't the be all and end all of life. We need entrepreneurs who can DO and LEAD and not pseudo- intellectuals who cannot DO and have to be LED

Yes Maril, there is no doubt that there are quite a few "professional" students out there who want to leave their life as it is, roaming the hallowed halls of their favourite university and it is also true that many "graduates" never find a job that is fulfilling or even remotely connected to their post-graduate subject.

It is also true that we cannot all be chiefs and that some of us have to actually be indians but even with this being said I still feel that many people who go through the elitist prep-schools and on to Eton and Oxbridge are people who have been born into privilege and who - skilled or not - always seem to gravitate to being politicians or captains of industry. They think, and they are probably right, that they have been born to rule and the education system at that level encourages them to think that way whether they are up to the job or not.